Talk:OT VIII

• /Archive 1

4th attempt at compromise

I've gone ahead and made a 4th good faith attempt at compromise:

1. Removed all subsections based on background of author of quote.
2. Removed all organization of quotes by chronological order.
3. Added organization of quotes by last name of author, alphabetically.

• Please see diff link. Thank you for your time, -- Cirt (talk) 19:48, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for accepting the point about article structure, above. I was not looking forward to working through the proposition that, on certain subjects, readers are most interested in the quotes of experts in the field. ~ Ningauble (talk) 22:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad that this compromise is satisfactory to you. :) -- Cirt (talk) 22:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment on 'quality of quotes'

In a recently archived discussion at Talk:OT VIII/Archive 1#Quality of quotes, two editors expressed the view that many or most of the quotations in the article listed under "About" are lacking Wikiquote:Quotability, and one editor, who had initially created the article, expressed strong disagreement with this view. The question was discussed over a period of ten days, and four of the thirty quotations were removed. The discussion was removed to the archive two days after the article creator's last rebuttal.

The discussion seems to have been closed prematurely, without forming a consensus, and I would like to invite other editors to review the discussion and comment on the question of keeping or removing these quotes. Thank you. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

• My position is that the majority of these quotes should be removed from the article. Several individual quotes are itemized with reasons in the archive. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
  • Perhaps we could reverse the nature of the discussion, Ningauble, and you could volunteer helpful suggestions for which quotes we can keep and retain on this page? That would be most appreciated, -- Cirt (talk) 16:33, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
    • Although my perspective was previously documented (I stated that most of the quotes seemed more like recitations of fact and not memorable quotes), if I were pressed, these are the quotes from the page that come closest to being memorable and worth keeping (although I could also see them moved to Scientology). The rest I would delete. ~ UDScott (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

• We have calculated that on average, each person on planet earth has 2,209 of these Body Thetans (BT's for short), Hubbard's term for the alien spirits, attached to you causing you to be constrained by Xenu's false reality. The average cost for Scientology to OT 8 is a mere USD 360,000, meaning that each BT only costs USD 163 to clear. Now that is a bargain if there ever was one.
  • "Scientology "technology:" save US$400,000 here!". The Asian Tribune (www.asiantribune.com). June 19, 2005. Retrieved on October 18, 2012.
• How could this be? The church's OT VIIIs, Katz said, are purported to be "completely able to make whatever they want to have happen in life." She acknowledged the seeming inconsistency of feeling so lost after having attained the highest spiritual level in Scientology. She said that away from the church, she felt in control, she felt like an OT VIII. But with anything that had to do with the "church agenda, she felt a loss of control. "It was like having two different lives."
  • Joe Childs and Thomas C. Tobin (December 31, 2009). "Three of Scientology's elite parishioners keep faith, but leave the church". St. Petersburg Times (Florida: www.tampabay.com). Retrieved on October 18, 2012.
• Reaching the highest level — OT VIII — usually requires a Scientologist to spend years and tens of thousands of dollars on courses, counseling, books, lectures and other materials. ... Reaching levels seven and eight can cost tens of thousands of dollars more, depending on the pace of a person's counseling progress.
  • Joe Childs and Thomas C. Tobin (December 31, 2009). "Climbing The Bridge: A journey to 'Operating Thetan'". St. Petersburg Times (Florida: www.tampabay.com). Retrieved on October 18, 2012.
• He says he spent about $200,000 progressing up the church's Bridge to Total Freedom and reached OT VIII in 2006 aboard the church's cruise ship, the Freewinds.
  • Joe Childs and Thomas C. Tobin (December 31, 2009). "Three of Scientology's elite parishioners keep faith, but leave the church". St. Petersburg Times (Florida: www.tampabay.com). Retrieved on October 18, 2012.
• She said it took her 13 years to complete the OT VII level, traveling to Clearwater every six months, often spending $7,865 for intensive auditing sessions. As an OT VIII, she said she spent $16,385 for one 12½ hour, intensive auditing program. "And it didn't resolve the issue, which I was promised it was going to," she said.
  • Joe Childs and Thomas C. Tobin (December 31, 2009). "Three of Scientology's elite parishioners keep faith, but leave the church". St. Petersburg Times (Florida: www.tampabay.com). Retrieved on October 18, 2012.
• There are up to 28 processing steps that require a mix of intense training, auditing and a surrender of reason before a Scientologist can reach Operating Thetan Level VIII, the highest level attainable. What this actually means remains unclear. What is clear, however, is that the total discounted rate for Scientologists to achieve this perceived goal is $277,000, the ASHO Official Scientology Price List reports. For this and other reasons, such as paying members 10 percent commissions for new recruits, Scientology has been denied non profit status in other countries.
  • Daniel Dunn (September 14, 2008). "Free stress test comes with a price". The Oracle (www.usforacle.com). Retrieved on October 18, 2012.
• On March 24, the swashbuckling truth-seekers at Wikileaks.org published what they referred to as "the collected secret 'bibles' of Scientology," and three days later, church-friendly lawyers threatened the site with legal action if the documents weren't taken down. Calling them "Advanced Technology of the Scientology religion," the lawyers pointed out that the documents are copyrighted works registered to the Religious Technology Center (RTC), a church-related holding company. Wikileaks did not remove the documents. But it did tell the world their veracity has been verified.
  • Metz, Cade (April 8, 2008). Scientology threatens Wikileaks with injunction. The Register. Retrieved on 2008-04-10.
• A Scientologist who spends $280,000 on the cult's “intensives” and courses to achieve “Operating Thetan Level VIII” status may consider himself spiritually superior ...
  • Geoffrey Miller (2010). "The Relative Efficiency and Morality of Different Signaling Systems". Spent: Sex, Evolution, and Consumer Behavior. Penguin Books. ISBN 0143117238.
• Even more controversial is a passage in the disputed Level VIII documents that debunks major religions as instruments of "enslavement" and depicts Jesus as "a lover of young boys and men...given to uncontrollable bursts of temper and hatred."
  • Prendergast, Alan (Octoer 4, 1995). Stalking the Net. Denver Westword News. Village Voice Media. Retrieved on August 10, 2011.
• Mike and Donna Henderson, onetime Scientologists from Clearwater, were victims of this culture. OT 7 and OT 8 respectively, they were nearly bankrupted by their involvement with the church. Today they are two of a growing number of ex-Scientologists who predict that in these dark economic times, Scientology's "unvarnished demand for money", as Mike puts it, may lead to its demise.
  • Janet Reitman (2011). Inside Scientology. Boston: Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. pp. 184, 349. ISBN 0618883029.
• It is in our interests, to broadly disseminate the truth of these levels rather than allow suppressives to distort and misuse this information for their own purposes.
  • Scientology organization, cited in — Lorne Dawson (2004). Religion Online: Finding Faith on the Internet. Routledge. p. 265. ISBN 0415970210.
• As it happens, the RTC initially claimed copyright of all the OT materials in the affidavit — including this OT VIII text — but later amended its claim to exclude the OT VIII materials, now arguing that they are a forgery.
  • Urban. The Church of Scientology. 2011. pp. 186-188.
• Despite all of the church's extreme measures, however, the Fishman affidavit, along with all of the confidential OT materials, reappeared on alt.religion.scientology on July 31, 1995. Since then, they have been reproduced on site after site, server after server, in innumerable languages, rendering any concept of confidentiality or secrecy fairly moot in the cyber domain.
  • Urban. The Church of Scientology. 2011. pp. 186-188.
• In this case, elsewhere, the church's war on the Internet appears to have backfired, and its attempts to staunch the flow of confidential material online have only accelerated their global dissemination.
  • Urban. The Church of Scientology. 2011. pp. 186-188.

—This unsigned comment is by UDScott (talk • contribs) .

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("done" removed, as gesture of good faith) I have implemented above suggestions by UDScott (talk · contributions), above. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 18:54, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

I removed the "done" template, above, as gesture of good faith, as it was incorrectly interpreted by Ningauble (talk · contributions) to mean something which it was not intended for when used. Cheers, -- Cirt (talk) 21:40, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Notwithstanding that the discussion has been marked Done by the article creator, just one day after comments were solicited, other opinions are still welcome, especially from those who have not yet participated in the discussion. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:38, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Cirt has obviously put a lot of effort into this article, and his sourcing seems to be impeccable. But I do find Cirt's perception of what is quotable differs radically from mine (and apparently from some other people's too).--Collingwood (talk) 21:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

I really appreciate the specific suggestions by UDScott (talk · contributions) about which quotes are worth retaining, and I went ahead and retained those and trimmed out a lot of others, showing a good faith extension of compromise on my part. I would hope others can make similar suggestions as UDScott (talk · contributions) was able to do, so we can move forwards. -- Cirt (talk) 21:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

5th attempt at compromise

1. 5th attempt at compromise = I've gone ahead and implemented the suggestions of UDScott (talk · contributions), above, please see his comment at diff link.
2. Please see my edit implemented suggestions by UDScott (talk · contributions), at diff link.
3. I'm going to have to go back in and make minor formatting edits to restore the citation templates.
4. Also, this is of course without prejudice towards further research on this topic in the future, going forwards.

Hopefully this will be satisfactory, -- Cirt (talk) 18:56, 1 November 2012 (UTC)