User talk:CTSWyneken

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Hello, CTSWyneken, and welcome to English Wikiquote.

Enjoy! Thanks for your work on Martin Luther. I added a link to what seems like a credible translation of "On the Jews and Their Lies". Unfortunately, it is not well divided so I could not make the references more specific -- but they are exact quotations from the work. If you know how I could get an original version of the German text online, I could work with German-knowing friends to source the german quotes and give exact numbers. Thanks for your help ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 04:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Re: Martin Luther quotes[edit]

Dear Moshe: Thanks for the note! As a librarian and a Luther scholar, I'm a little touchy about copyright. Most verbatim copies on the internet are from the American Edition of Luther's Works are are there against the will of the publisher. I know, because I asked them for their permission to put the work on the internet through Project Wittenberg. While we don't like works written by the reformer in his anger ("On the Jews and Their Lies" is the most infamous, having been misused by Hitler, other works are also not particularly inviting (such as "Against the Robbing, Raping, Murdering Hordes of Peasants." ), we would put it on for accuracy. We wish he had risen above his times in this matter, but he did not. I have access to the German, but I have not found an english edition in the public domain.

Sorry I ramble. Anyway, if you're near a fairly sizeable city, I can locate a copy you can borrow from a Library, if you really want to read this thing. Email me at smithre@ctsfw.edu and I'll tickle the keyboard for you. Since all manner of things have been put in famous people's mouths, however, I think we should shy away from unattributed quotes. (Can't tell you how many hours I've spent tracking supposed quotes from Luther.)

Bob Smith--CTSWyneken 01:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your message! I am sorry to hear there is no English version in the public domain. It would be nice to find a reference to a German edition, and even nicer to find a German edition in an electronic format (such a thing I could put through babelfish for a first-pass translation to find the quotes I'm interested in and translate them with a human). As a wikiquote editor, I can certainly appreciate the effort going to sourcing a quotation -- finding the source for "Kill them all, let God sort out the bodies" was a joint effort by Jeff, two friends of mine and me, and finding the source for a De Vinci misquotation was half an hour of tracking sources.
Please note that in wikiquote slang, "attributed" means "put in someone's mouth" (as opposed to "Sourced", which is a quotation for which we have exact references), whereas "unattributed" means "nobody but wikiquote thinks the person said such a thing" (which is something that shouldn't be). I agree attributed quotes are problematic - I hope that the effort we do into seperating them from sourced quotes and the efforts we do to source the quotes improve things, but I doubt things will improve if we just removed the attributed quotes altogether.
I will send you an e-mail with more information. Thanks! ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 05:25, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
PS: You put your message to me on my user page, rather than in my talk page. Unfortunately, that is an easy error to make (I made it myself once or twice). A user page is a bad place to put messages for several reasons, so please pay more attention to it in the future. You can go directly to my talk page if you follow the "(Talk)" link in my signature rather than the "MosheZadka" link. If you know all this, and this was just an oversight, I apologize for the rant. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 05:25, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

Dear Moshe: Were you able to snag a copy of "On the Jews..."

I appreciate the info about how "Attributed" is understood here. With Luther especially I tend to be very careful. I need to be shown where Luther said something before I'll grant he said it. Part of that is receiving a few requests a month for locations of Luther quotes I almost never find. The ones from "On the Jews..." can be quite difficult since it was one very large rambling book that most Lutherans wish had never been written. The quotations on our page are of the nature of some of the language in that work, but I cannot be certain at all they are Luther's actual words. They certainly are not among his most famous, or infamous, quotations. (like "Kill, stab and murder Pope and Turk.")

To illustrate the problem: Luther's most famous words: "Here I stand, I can do no other, so help me God, Amen!" Were almost universally recognized as his until in recent years someone pointed out that no one could produce the words in accounts written during Luther's lifetime....

So, I tend to go with the more conventional definition of attributed: popularly credited to an author where there is no evidence the person ever wrote or said the words.

Did you want to find some kind of third catagory to use to distinguish between things virtually everybody is sure he didn't say and those that we just have no verified source to confirm it?

Bob --CTSWyneken 02:31, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

I believe you may have misunderstood me. Lack of clear source is enough to put a quote under attributed. However, all the quotes are added were from an academic site featuring a translation of "On the Jew...". You didn't seem to have accuracy problems with the translation, so I am not understanding your complaint. The translation, and possibly the original, had no chapter information. That is, indeed, unfortunate. I would dearly love to work from an original, if you can find the original German (AIUI not copyrighted) online somewhere (my own attempts, using the German title in google, failed). Thanks ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 04:30, 7 September 2005 (UTC)