User talk:Sir James Paul
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Remember if you join wikiquote:Esperanza you can be the vice president and help me set up the project. The goal of Esperanza is to make wikiquote a more friendly place to work. I hope you will join.--Sir James Paul 19:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I've nominated for deletion your effort to establish an Esperanza project here. There are so many reasons why this is inappropriate (some of which I describe in the VfD nomination), but the basic problem is that you are too inexperienced a wiki editor to be creating a project like this. In fact, you don't even currently qualify for membership in Wikipedia:Esperanza. Your lack of awareness of how it operates, and how Wikiquote operates, make this project untenable. It is incredibly important before one assumes meta-project responsibilities like this that one first gets considerable experience working on the basic project. Otherwise, one cannot expect to be taken seriously when advising others. Sorry to be the bearer of such bad tidings. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Check the members list on both Esperanzas because I am a member of both. Plus I'm going to bring in members of both esperanzas to help me out. I also stepped down as president. Take it off the deletion list please. --Sir James Paul 20:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Why don't you join this project and help make it great? You and me will make a great team. Come on, just join.--Sir James Paul 21:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- I had checked the list. The fact that people who don't meet the requirements can still add their names to the membership list reinforces my suspicion that Esperanza has some flaws that are being exploited by people who are much less interested in building an encyclopedia than they are in chatting with each other. (There's nothing wrong with the latter, if done in a MySpace context, but there is if it's using Wikimedia resources just to network.)
- I believe you have only good intentions, but that's not enough. Creating and maintaining a project like Esperanza takes experienced editors willing to learn the rules of the projects they're working within and willing to devote the time to work within its policies to accomplish the stated goals. I know every single editor within Wikiquote who has the capability to do this — ir's a very small community by WP standards — and I believe there is no one willing to assume the helm of this particular project. The VfD discussion will show whether or not I am right, and if I'm wrong, we'll have the beginnings of a proper Esperanza. So there's no downside to the nomination.
- By the way, another tip to a new editor: it's a good idea to compose your entire talk-page post before posting it, instead of making many small changes over time. If the person you're posting to is online, they will get an annoying message on every wiki page that they have a post, and will be encouraged to read it before they continue their work. If they try to respond while you are still tacking on additional notes, you will only step on each others' toes. As far as joining this project, I don't join projects unless I can commit to the responsibilities they incur. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no qualifacations for simple english wikipedia.--Sir James Paul 21:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- I am referring to your membership on en:Wikipedia, the flagship project, where Esperanza can and should be expected to be more diligent and functional than for any other project. This is also where, unsurprisingly, its actual operation is being called into question. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 22:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Trust me, I can make Esperanza work on wikiquote. I will encorage Esperanza members to work hard.--Sir James Paul 22:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- Hard work isn't enough. One must know what one is doing, and why. This is not so important in a MySpace context, because encouragement during hard times is something everyone might be expected to know how to do, calling on the life experiences we all share as we mature. But it would be foolish to presume one could encourage university professors through the challenges of acquiring tenure without understanding academia, and it would be pointless to try to counsel suicidal people without professional training or personal experience. If you can't see how this is analogous to trying to assistance Wikimedia editors with wiki cultural problems without understanding how wikis work, you are only strengthening my argument against this noble but misguided effort.
- I don't doubt your earnestness, only your ability to help out before walking the walk. If other Esperanza members like yourself, with no better understanding of what they're trying to do, start joining Wikiquote solely to provide this ill-considered assistance, you will only be complicating the already great challenges that the few people who have walked the walk are struggling with. You're already doing so with me, as I spend all my available editing time right now trying to get you to understand the problem, rather than address critical policy issues, perfomance massive amounts of basic maintenance, and give new users informed assistance on how to work with Wikiquote. You are currently achieving exactly the opposite of your stated intentions with your insistence, giving us an unfortunate but excellent example of why this won't work. Trust me, because I know what I'm talking about and have the years of documented wiki experience to prove it. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:20, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I will start to work hard at editing once I've got my idea off the ground. I am determined for this to do well. I have this project well figured out.--Sir James Paul 02:31, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, but this isn't acceptable. One doesn't decide to become a train conductor and take charge of a locomotive just because one wishes to be the boss. One must first learn the ropes and demonstrate competence at the desired task. Please either demonstrate such competence or desist in your attempts. Your persistence in this effort is beginning to look like the enthusiasm of a child who decides he wants to be President of the United States without understanding what it is that a President does, or just how much work it is even to stand for the position. I'm sorry if this analogy upsets you, but I'm having trouble understanding why you are so insistent on doing something you clearly have no ability to do yet, and lack of maturity is the only reasonable explanation I can come up with at this point. Most adults are aware of the basic need to prove oneself before one assumes responsibilities, and you show none of this awareness, only an unwavering need to be in charge. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Will you take off the requst for deletion sign and give me till Christmas to work out the kinks. I beg of you, PLEASE.--Sir James Paul 02:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I know that I have the ability to do this. What you do not understand is that I have been asking people at wikipia Esperanza what the weaknesses are and I am going to make sure that does not happen here. --Sir James Paul 02:57, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
- Remember what I said about composing your message first and then posting it? This not only would avoid the edit conflicts you are generating in this discussion, but is the same kind of mature thoughtfulness necessary to tackle the project you have assumed for yourself. You continue to fail to demonstrate that thinking, making your case worse with every post.
- Have you read even one of the policies I urged you to read? Wikiquote:Deletion policy, which anyone participating in a Wikiquote:Votes for deletion discussion is supposed to read, makes clear that, once nominated in good faith, a discussion should run its proper length unless and until a sysop decides that a speedy deletion is justified. You haven't even tried to justify your position with evidence, only pleading and promises not backed up by your documented lack of experience.
- If you don't believe I am treating you reasonably in this situation, you are welcome to ask any other sysop, or perhaps run this by an experienced Wikipedia editor you know. I'm afraid you'll get the same arguments from them. Esperanzans, who are part of the general problem, are not a reasonable source for advice in this matter. Even so, I suspect if you talk to Esperanzans with considerable Wikipedia editing experience, they will also advise you not to pursue this. The primary weakness in your idea is your own lack of experience, which you cannot fix in a few weeks. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
You deleted my post at Wikiquote:Village pump#Esperanza and replaced it with your own text. This is considered vandalism on Wikimedia projects. Your lack of awareness of basic wiki etiquette has now taken you into disruptive editing. I am still trying to assume good faith, but your ignorance of basic policy, combined with your determination to make an uninformed point, is likely to get you blocked. I strongly advise you to read the links I provided when I posted the welcome message above. We provide these links to help new editors learn about how the community works, and someone whose stated goal is to help this community absolutely must understand these basic principles. If you have questions, please ask myself or someone else with experience. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
P.S. In case you aren't aware, the blue links you see in information and advice, like the ones I've been providing above, are there to encourage readers to read them to better understand what is being discussed. Please take this encouragement before you try to dole out your own encouragement. If for no other reason, surely you must understand that doling out advice and encouragement while ignoring the same given to you does not make for a good Esperanzan. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
How to help Wikiquote
If you're looking for something to do to help Wikiquote, there are lots of things that need doing. For instance, keep an eye on Special:Newpages, and then compare each article with the template for its type. If it doesn't follow the template, fix it so it does. If the new article looks like it is a non-notable subject, put it up for deletion. Better still, just prowl around articles looking for quotes which don't have a source listed, find the source and add it. This sort of work is really needed and will quickly earn you a lot of respect on Wikiquote. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 16:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- I fear you have misunderstood me. My point is, given that you have signed up to a charter which states "I will make at least 21 articles a week, I will improve articles", it would be very nice to see this happening. Fys. “Ta fys aym”. 17:00, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
You wrote: I would like to tell you that wikiquote:Esperanza is not like the Esperanza on wikipedia. The goal of the Esperanza on wikipedia is to make the sense of community better while the Esperanza on wikiquote's mission is to make wikiquote a more friendly place, to fight vandalism and keep it from becoming a problem here, and to make the number of articles here grow and improve the quality of them. Another thing I would like to tell you is that all I am is the interm president, I am not making this so I can have power but to make wikiquote better all around. Have a nice week.--Sir James Paul 17:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- That may be all well and good, but I still do not see the point of having something like this. Rather than spending a lot of time talking, voting, and creating charter and goals, why not actually perform some edits, cleanup, or vandalism reversion? I don't see the need to create an artificial group just to do what any good editor would do anyway. It's nothing personal against you, I just don't see the value. ~ UDScott 17:09, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
One more try
Sir James Paul, I am posting this as my last attempt to win you over as a real contributor to Wikiquote. The goal of this project is to collect quotations from notable sources. In the end, all work done here must serve that purpose, and anything that interferes with it is discouraged, and can even result in blocks or bans if it is repeated without a project-related rationale.
You have frequently repeated statements about how Esperanza is necessary for a good working environment on Wikiquote. You have neither the knowledge of Wikiquote nor any evidence that this is true. This is simply your assumption, and it is a manifestly incorrect one. en:Wikiquote has many problems, but none of them can be resolved by trying to start a support group that no one here is interested in joining. If you could somehow do this all by yourself, you would not be taken seriously by anyone, because you have repeatedly demonstrated that you do not understand what it is that editors do here, or what problems they face. This relentless refusal to educate yourself before you try to push an adjunct project on an unwilling community worries me, because it suggests that you will not learn from people who are actively trying to help you. (I don't mean the editors coming from other Wikimedia projects, who I'm sorry to see have occasionally been rather unpolite in their own advice and criticisms. I'm talking about regular editors of Wikiquote like LrdChaos, Fys, UDScott, and myself, who are trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and to explain how things work here.)
One editor has claimed that you are [statement deleted per user request - JQ]. Wikimedia projects have many editors of this general age who are valuable contributors. But we do have an expectation that youthful editors will abide by the same policies and practices that adult editors must. It is not surprising that many young people are not ready for this challenge. But it's a very good idea — for anyone of any age, not just minors — to start small and gain experience with general work on a Wikimedia project before trying to do something as ambitious as participate in (let alone run!) a sub-project like Esperanza, regardless of how you wish to define it. The concept of apprenticeship is a very powerful and useful one in the Wikimedia projects, as most successful editors learn by doing. If you are unable or unwilling to learn by doing first, you can be sure that no one who has done this work will ever take you seriously here, any more than you would think much of the opinions of an art student about how a computer is built. The only way to gain credibility in a project like Wikiquote or Wikipedia is to prove to other editors that you know what you're doing, and the single best way to do this is to work on articles. Your work will show up, for everyone to see, in your edit history. This is the basis of any Wikimedian's reputation. Let your work, not your words, speak for you.
I hope you will find this information useful, and that you will decide to work with us here, on the Wikipedias, and elsewhere. Whether you do or not, I wish you the best. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 09:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not want my age to get out anywhere on the internet. Other than my talk page did you say what my age is, if you did please delete it. By the way the age that you said on the talk page is my age. Another thing I would like to ask you is if you can let me make a new account since my age got out. Is that ok with you?--Sir James Paul 20:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- You can create a new account for yourself at any time. Simply log out of your current one, click on the "Sign in / create account" in the upper right corner, and register a new account name. Your email address can be the same as the old one, or different, or you can leave it blank. (It's only used if you would like someone to be able to use the "E-mail this user" link.) Just make sure you aren't still logged in when you create the new account, or it will show up in the new-user log that "Sir James Paul" created the new account.
- Incidentally, you should be careful about giving out information about yourself. Please note that I had said that "one editor has claimed that you are" a certain age. I said it this way because we have no way of knowing this for sure, even if you agree that you are. Many people on the Internet these days claim to be something other than they are, and some of them have the ability to pass as older, younger, a different sex, etc. Even though I didn't think this was much of a revelation, as your writing style and other aspects of your posts strongly imply your age, I still preferred to write as if this information was not confirmed and was suspect. It's unfortunate that you chose to say this information was accurate. If you create a new account, I recommend that you avoid saying anything about your age to anyone you correspond with, even to agree with someone else's deductions. Wikimedia editors are not only not required to divulge their ages, they are encouraged not to do so, for privacy reasons. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:39, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikiquote Simple English
This is a odd request, but can you become more active on wikiquote simple english. The project is in serious need of more articles. If the reason why you do not want to become a active editor is because it is up for deletion, well, that is not a great reason because I am going to try to get it undeleted if it gets deleted. Have a nice week.--Sir James Paul 00:16, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
- Your request for assistance in building up Simple-English Wikiquote isn't odd at all. However, I don't feel I have the bandwidth necessary to do any work on SE Wikiquote just now. (I'm not even doing en:WQ justice at the moment.) Furthermore, as I've said in the discussion about closing SE WQ, I don't believe we can make a proper Wikimedia project out of SE WQ because its intent appears to be to explain quotes, and Wikimedia editors are not supposed to interpret things — they are required to write only what they have reliable sources for. (This would require that each quote include a source for the interpretation, not just a SE WQ user claiming a particular interpretation. Based on my long experience at en:WQ and en:WP, I don't think this has a snowball's chance of happening.)
- The only potential I see for SE WQ is to cast it as a standard Wikiquote with simpler prose for the non-quote material (e.g., policy pages, article intros, maybe even a simple sourcing format). In that situation, there may be some way to automate the routine updating of quotes from en:WQ to SE WQ, leaving the simple-English prose untouched. But this would take considerable work, so I'm not interested in pursuing this unless and until the Wikimedia community decides the fate of SE WQ.
- As far as getting SE WQ undeleted if it is voted down, I once again urge you to learn about Wikimedia before you charge into these situations. The only rationale for deletion reviews is if the deletion was done outside policy. Even if this happens, it is very likely that any case you attempt to bring will not be taken seriously because you have demonstrated virtually no understanding of the Wikimedia world. (Sorry to be so blunt, but my earlier communications seem not to have been blunt enough to register.) You would serve your cause much better to get a more seasoned WM editor, who supports your cause, to lead the effort. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 03:53, 9 December 2006 (UTC)