Talk:Winston Churchill/Archive 1

Any idea why the

Any idea why the "..Verify your quotations." quote was removed? Nanobug 03:10, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

This and another that was removed at the same time have now been replaced. I see no clear reason why they were removed. ~ Kalki 16:03, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

During the chronological arrangement of the sourced quotes I increased specificity of some dates, and made these alterations: I changed citations of "Hansard" to "Speech in House of Commons" — "Hansard" is the parliamentary record of orations in the House of Commons. ~ Kalki 15:38, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Internet Hate-Sites

One of the Churchill quotations was linked to a neo-Nazi internet hate-site. The quotation is authentic and therefore remains, but the link has been removed.

Transwiki

Be aware that http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Transwiki:Winston_Churchill has arrived.

What is "Transwiki"? PBS 16:33, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Churchill Wit

National lampoon had a list of lampooned Churchill quotes with certain words changed for comic effect (along the lines of the following):

At an elegant dinner party, Lady Astor once leaned across the table to remark, "If you were my husband, Winston, I'd poison your coffee." "If I were your husband, madam, I would drink it." came Churchill's unhesitating retort.

Most of them I could recognize, but this one has stumped me so far:

While serving as a subaltern in the Boer War, the young Churchill was asked by a superior officer to give his opinion of the Boers as soldiers. "They're assholes, sir," he ventured, then paused briefly and added, with a whimsical smile, "They're assholes."

Does anyone know where that comes from?

Churchill was english, the english don't say assholes

this is an americism, the english say arseholes!

It was probaly typed in by an american, who had heard it, and wrote it using the american spelling

The comic version, with the word "assholes" was certainly written by an American. The question is: What original Churchill quotation is being lampooned here? He is said to have said that "the individual Boer, mounted, in a suitable country, is worth four or five regular soldiers.", but I doubt that that is the quote in question.

--- (THE ABOVE ENTRY WAS NOT SIGNED - WHAT FOLLOWS BELOW IS FROM A DIFFERENT CONTRIBUTOR) This comes from the late National Lampoon writer Michael O'Donoghue (incidentally, along with John Belushi, the first person ever to be shown on SNL). And, yes, the famous "Mr. Mike" was an American. Being a Yank myself, I can't tell you if the distinction between "asshole" and "arsehole" is just an accent-related difference, or whatever.

For the full text, you'd have to Google for a quotation - the only one I could find was from a BLOG! ([1]). But I'm certain it's the same piece, and worth checking out.

Oh, and here's the official variation from the "coffee" quote mentioned above. Seems the mysterious unsigned contributor tried to pass off an actual Churchill quote as the parody, which is:

At an elegant dinner party, Lady Astor once leaned across the table to remark, "If you were my husband, Winston, I'd poison your coffee."

"And if you were my wife, I'd beat the shit out of you," came Churchill's unhesitating retort.

--74.72.201.17 05:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Removed

• "I do not understand this squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poison gas against uncivilized tribes. The moral effects should be good, and it would spread a lively terror."
• "I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes. The moral effect should be so good that the loss of life should be reduced to a minimum. It is not necessary to use only the most deadly gasses: gasses can be used which cause great inconvenience and would spread a lively terror and yet would leave no serious permanent effects on most of those affected."
  • Was attributed (twice), but the sourced section now contains a longer quote in context. I'm not sure if "lively terror" has any source.

—This unsigned comment is by Stevesliva (talk • contribs) .

• "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its trousers on." - This was a quote of Mark Twains & the quote was boots not trousers

• "The United States is like a giant boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it, there is no limit to the power it can generate."
  • This appears to be misattributed: quoting from Churchill's 'The Grand Alliance' (Volume III of The Second World War), 1st ed., 607-608: 'I thought of a remark which Edward Grey had made to me more than thirty years before - that the United States is like "a giant boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate."'

—This unsigned comment is by 65.49.136.5 (talk • contribs) .

This quote has been removed. It has also been cited as having come from The River War, but such passages do not occur in the 1902 edition available from Project Gutenberg.

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

—This unsigned comment is by 82.35.65.204 (talk • contribs) .

---

I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why this is being removed. It clearly says that it is from Longhams Green publication. This is just more political correctness bullshit. It wasn't included in Gutenberg, because Gutenberg is not based off of Longhams Green!

—This unsigned comment is by 75.117.246.120 (talk • contribs) .

The edit done by IP 82.35.65.204 on 2006-11-08 removed the material, apparently with legitimate concerns of accuracy, which is a bit more than "political correctness bullshit" — with a statement that it was not in the edition available at Project Gutenberg; another edit by Fys restored it. So far, I have found no mentions of "Longhams Green publication" anywhere in the article or summary histories, but the quote remains in the article, without any further confirming citations, in relation to its disputabilty. Any further citations and sourcing of the quote would be appreciated. ~ Kalki 15:36, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Pathan

EXCEPT at harvest-time, when self-preservation enjoins a temporary truce, the Pathan tribes... I would like to include the full text as used in the Economist which was the same as Here's what Winston Churchill had to say on Afganistan in 1897 Is this an acceptable lenth of quote? The reason why I would like to include it is because it is as pertanant today thanks to the Soviet and American interventions in Afganistan as the day it was written. PBS 16:33, 26 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I once read a very extensive quote of Churchill regarding arabs and islam. I've not been able to find it since. Does anyone know what I'm referring to?

Yes, indeed. A very offensive remark comparing Arabs to pigs (or was it dogs), and calling on them to be brutalised. Unfortunately, I do not have access to the quote, but I can confirm it's existence (if, indeed, this is what you had in mind?) --84.167.200.48 4 July 2005 13:51 (UTC)

Comparing muslims to dogs? Not quite the inference that I take away. Here's the quote:

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.

Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.

• "I am sure it would be sensible to restrict as much as possible the work of these, who are capable of doing an immense amount of harm with what may very easily degenerate into charlatanry. The tightest hand should be kept over them, and they should not be allowed to quarter themselves in large numbers among Fighting Services at the public expense."
  - Winston Churchill, British Prime Minister, 1942 [2]

--AI 01:20, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I added the "Mohammedanism" quote above to the article, but see this for details. --tickle me 11:03, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

It is sometimes pointed out that the Churchill quote on Islam does not appear in the Project Gutenberg online edition of The River War. That is true. However, the Gutenberg online edition of the book reproduces the abridged one-volume 1902 edition of The River War. The quotation is found in the original, two-volume 1899 edition of the book --volume II, pages 248-250.

Thanks for this information. I had suspected that the Gutenberg edition might have been an earlier edition than the one usually cited, I had not realized it was an abridgement of an earlier one. ~ Kalki 19:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Restoring a (mostly) chronological order

In June this page was divided up into multiple subject headings, many with only one quote, and chronological order was mostly ignored. I spent quite a bit of time restoring the page to mostly a more standard chronological format, retaining only a couple of the newer subject headings, as I don't absolutely reject that as an organizing principle, but think choronological ordering of sourced quotes, and then sourced works with separate headings is a better one. I retained the subject headings on Mohandas Gandhi and Adolf Hitler because they both contain significant statements of different perspectives on these major figures made years apart; but generally, dividing the sourced quotes mostly into arbitrary "subject" headings makes it much harder to avoid duplicates that might be seen as treating several different subjects, and creates an overly long Table of Contents, that can give far more prominence to some singular remarks than they probably deserve, and make others harder to find.

Prior to June the section headings were:

1 Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill (this was a redundant heading the in old format)

2 Sourced

2.1 Early Career

2.2 World War II

2.3 After World War II

3 Attributed

3.1 Historical

3.2 Wit

3.3 Aphorisms

4 External links

After june they were:

1 Verified

1.1 On the Boer War

1.2 On communism & the Cold War

1.3 On democracy

1.4 On Mohandas Gandhi

1.5 On Adolf Hitler

1.6 On Ireland and the Irish people

1.7 Justifying imperialism

1.8 Politics & War

1.9 On psychiatry/psychology

1.10 On the Second World War

1.11 On society

1.12 On Zionism

1.13 On the House of Commons

1.14 Miscellaneous

2 Attributed

2.1 On Clement Atlee

2.2 On democracy

2.3 On the First World War

2.4 On history

2.5 On Capitalism

2.6 Politics & War

2.7 On the United States

2.8 Miscellaneous

3 Falsely Attributed

TEN of these "sections" had only 1 quote, three had just 2, and 4 had three; I think three quotes from a particular work might be a good dividing point at which to give it its own section, but don't see that it's all that useful to have so many arbitrary "subject headings" decided by an editor's whims, rather than by a concrete placement within a particular work or time.

In this latest revision these are the categories:

1 Sourced

1.1 Early career years

1.2 On Mohandas Gandhi

1.3 On Adolf Hitler

1.4 The World War II years

1.5 Post-war years

2 Disputed quotations

3 Attributed

3.1 Anecdotal dialogue

4 Misattributions

5 External links

In the process of editing I could not find a definite source or date for the following quotation. It is an interesting statement, but without a citation to a particular work, or a date for a traceable speech, I felt that it does not yet belong in the sourced section, and I moved it to the attributed section, with comments:

• It is the habit of the boa constrictor to besmear the body of his victim with a foul slime before he devours it; and there are many people in England, and perhaps elsewhere, who seem to be unable to contemplate military operations for clear political objects, unless they can cajole themselves into the belief that their enemy are utterly and hopelessly vile… This may be very comforting to philanthropic persons at home; but when an army in the field becomes imbued with the idea that the enemy are vermin who cumber the earth, instances of barbarity may very easily be the outcome. This unmeasured condemnation is moreover as unjust as it is dangerous and unnecessary.
  • This statement was originally posted with a claim that it had been made in a speech to the House of Commons on Horatio Kitchener's destruction of the tomb of Muhammad Ahmad, but with no date provided, or as yet determinable. It has also been cited in at least one incident as having come from The River War vol. ii., p. 394, but such passages do not occur in the 1902 edition available from Project Gutenberg. In that edition the destruction of the tomb is mentioned as occurring in Battle of Omdurman without much comment. It seems to be a statement that might be made about attitudes in almost any war, but as yet no definite citation has been provided.

That's it for now... ~ Achilles 16:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

New quote

Wars are not won by evacuation, they are won by invasion

This was said after the Dunkirk-operation

Can somebody add the quote and check if I got it right?

I got another one too. "Only the navy can lose the war, only the RAF can win it" I don't remember when he said it.

His quote on suicide.

What about his famous quote to that female journalist who hated him during a debate?

Journalist: Sir, if I was married to you, I would put poison in your food.

Churchill: Madame, if I was married to you, I would eat it.

(I'm not sure if these are the exact words)

This derives from an exchange that has often been reported as having took place between Churchill and Lady Nancy Astor, and is included in the section on "Anecdotal dialogue". ~ Kalki 06:25, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Arabs

I have seen the following quote attributed to Churchill many times: "The Arabs are a backward people who eat nothing but camel dung".

Is this true? Can anyone confirm? I found a link thinkexist.com/quotation/the_arabs_are_a_backwards_people_who_eat_nothing/193064.html here. -Anon

Gas in Mesopotamia

I have slightly altered the text of the 'qualifications' paragraph following the 'Using gas against uncivilized tribes' quote, taking out some of the certainty, and redirecting readers to the Wikipedia Gas in Mesopotamia article. You'll see from that article that there is some historical debate on the matter, and I felt that 'Wiki' should be internally consistent. Anyone with contributions to make on that subject should probably take them to the Gas in Mesopotamia article.--Lopakhin 15:53, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

His quote on statistics

Wow. Is there any source for the fact that this wasn't an original quote? : —This unsigned comment is by 88.217.7.253 (talk • contribs) .

I did not post this as a misattribution, so I don't know of any sources, but I had never heard of it in English, and the fact that a Google search for "I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself" (within quote marks) only gives this one site as a result at present, and a search of the German "Ich glaube nur der Statistik, die ich selbst gefälscht habe" yields 243 hits probably counts for something. ~ Kalki 09:22, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

The quote is widely popular in Germany and attributed to Adenauer as well. The following German wikibook entry only suggests that the quote "seems to have originated within the perimeter of Göbbel's Ministry of Propaganda", but goes on that no definite source has been found so far.

http://de.wikibooks.org/wiki/Enzyklop%C3%A4die_der_popul%C3%A4ren_Irrt%C3%BCmer/_Geschichte#Churchill:_Winston_Churchill_sagte_.22Ich_glaube_keiner_Statistik.2C_die_ich_nicht_selbst_gef.C3.A4lscht_habe.22

Black dog

It strikes me that nowhere on this list is any example of Churchill using his famous phrase "black dog" to describe his depression. I suggest this is an omission that ought to be remedied. -Q4 10:50, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

About the "I only beliefe the statistics I doctored myself" quote

Wow, good research! That's true... it was nazi propaganda and many people here still actualy beliefe he said this. To be honest... I wish at least somebody in the history of man would have said this, because it's simply true ;) I think it wasn't the best nazi propaganda (thank good of course), because with that quote, they didn't just said that churchill is a lier, they ironicly stated that all statistics can be doctored or are doctored (so, even the statistics of the nazis). And there is something true behind this ;) So, it may be a missquoting and I'm happy that that's already stated here (because otherwise, I would have needed to add this), but I think it's still a funny and true quote... at least from the nazi propaganda... maybe they just said it to themselfs every day and came up with the idea to let it churchill say *lol* Anyway... good research! 80.108.235.208 19:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

I've tagged this article for cleanup because it has accumulated quite a few unsourced quotes in the "Sourced" section, and I don't have time right now to sort them out. Sources are specific publications from reliable sources, preferably including book editions, page numbers, article titles, periodical dates, and other specific information that allows readers to quickly find the quote in the cited source. Event descriptions, years without dates, and speech names and dates without published sources are NOT sources. They are useful descriptive information, but not specific enough to allow verification. Book titles without editions or page numbers, periodicals without article titles, and similar information that would require readers to spend hours to find the quote are inadequate sources, although they're certainly better than nothing. I ask regular article editors to move everything without proper sources into the "Unsourced" section. It would also be good to add notes to the source lines like "unidentified page", "unidentified article", "unidentified edition", etc., to make clear where information is missing for semi-sourced quotes. Thank you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 10:50, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

You can always count on Americans...

I can't find a citation for the quotation, "You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else." If you google this phrase, it is often attributed to Winston Churchill. Can anyone help?

Cryptography

The back cover of Codebreakers, edited by F. H. Hinsley and Alan Stripp, states that Bletchley Park was "described by Churchill as the 'secret weapon' that 'won the war'" --- does anyone know of another source for that, or when Churchill said it? Does it make sense to add?

what you can do for england quote?

Didn't Churchill say something like "Don't ask what England can do for you, ask what you can do for England!" ?

The closest thing i could find was JFKennedy's speech some years later: wikisource:John F. Kennedy's Inaugural Address where "England" becomes "country".

i seem to remember hearing the audio recording of this (not live, i'm not that old :), i mean replays), with his very british accent....

Boud 23:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Another pre-WWII quote

I don't have time to source this one right now, but shouldn't we include:

If you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a small chance of survival. There may even be a worse case: you may have to fight when there is no hope of victory because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

Hga 13:50, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

A quote in the section "Unsourced".

"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences.":

This quote features in Al Gore's documentary An Inconvenient Truth. Well, I guess it's up to you guys about this since I don't edit Wikiquote (nor am I even capable of). — Yurei-eggtart 12:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

...heroes fight like the Greeks

The quote:

We will not say thereafter that the Greeks fight like heroes, but heroes fight like the Greeks!

is widely attributed to Winston Churchill (and it is in the sourced section of the page) but I could not find where and when he said it. If someone would provide more info, please? Geraki 10:02, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

The terrible ifs accumulate

Churchill wrote after World War I about Gallipoli that "The terrible ifs accumulate". Here are three sources: Jenny Macleod Reconsidering Gallipoli p.4; Robert Cowley and Geoffrey Parker. Companion to Military History p.62; Robert Rhodes James Historical Notes; Grim, eloquent facts of Gallipoli The Independent, Mar 31, 1999. However although all three quote him none give the original source, does anyone know what the original source is? 79.72.79.116 09:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Like you I tried to source this quote and initially drew a blank in the 1915 The World Crisis. The quote comes from the 1914 volume of The World Crisis https://archive.org/details/worldcrisis00chur/page/274 retrieved 21 March 2019. The quote is in connection with the escape of the Goeben and Breslau and I suspect was initially misattributed to Gallipoli by Rhodes James in his 1965 Gallipoli. Prior, Hart and Macleod and Hart all repeat the quote in their books. The quote is Churchill's, it has been applied incorrectly to the Gallipoli campaign.

Edited 11 June 2019

James, Gallipoli p. 353; Macleod, Reconsidering Gallipoli, p. 4; Hart, Gallipoli, p. 462; Prior Gallipoli the end of the myth p. 249

... it costs nothing to be polite ...

When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite.

This quote was already in the Winston Churchill article, in the Unsourced section. I have added a more specific, sourced, entry in the Post-war years section. I have not removed the older quote entry as yet. Archimedes 20:41, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

http://www.winstonchurchill.org/resources/speeches/231-1930-1938-the-wilderness/105-our-duty-in-india

A Fight Without Hope

I have added this fairly well-known quote from The Gathering Storm in the Post-war years section. I have included the chapter name as part of my source information in the hope that this will serve as well as a specific page citation, since page may vary depending on the edition.

This quote is mentioned in a previous Talk section (Another pre-WWII quote), which called for its addition to the Churchill article.

Has anyone proposed grouping all quotes from The Second World War in a separate section? Archimedes 22:06, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Never believe war will be smooth and easy

I have removed a duplicate of this quote from the beginning of the Sourced section; corrected the dead link to the article in The Forward, and moved this comment to follow the remaining instance of the quote ( which, fwiw, is from My Early Life ); and added page # info for the quote. Archimedes 16:47, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

An Unresolved Issue

In the course of making some other changes, I came across the following:

From the (archived) Talk:Winston Churchill page, section Restoring a (mostly) chronological order :

In the process of editing I could not find a definite source or date for the following quotation. It is an interesting statement, but without a citation to a particular work, or a date for a traceable speech, I felt that it does not yet belong in the sourced section, and I moved it to the attributed section, with comments:

• It is the habit of the boa constrictor to besmear the body of his victim with a foul slime before he devours it; and there are many people in England, and perhaps elsewhere, who seem to be unable to contemplate military operations for clear political objects, unless they can cajole themselves into the belief that their enemy are utterly and hopelessly vile… This may be very comforting to philanthropic persons at home; but when an army in the field becomes imbued with the idea that the enemy are vermin who cumber the earth, instances of barbarity may very easily be the outcome. This unmeasured condemnation is moreover as unjust as it is dangerous and unnecessary.
  • This statement was originally posted with a claim that it had been made in a speech to the House of Commons on Horatio Kitchener's destruction of the tomb of Muhammad Ahmad, but with no date provided, or as yet determinable. It has also been cited in at least one incident as having come from The River War vol. ii., p. 394, but such passages do not occur in the 1902 edition available from Project Gutenberg. In that edition the destruction of the tomb is mentioned as occurring in Battle of Omdurman without much comment. It seems to be a statement that might be made about attitudes in almost any war, but as yet no definite citation has been provided.

That's it for now... ~ Achilles 16:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

From the Wikipedia article for The River War :

The River War was Churchill's second published book after The Story of the Malakand Field Force, and originally filled two volumes with over 1000 pages in 1899. The River War was subsequently abridged to one volume in 1902.

The unabridged version contains many illustrations with drawings, photogravures, and colored maps. It also contains vivid narratives of personal adventures of the author, his views on British expansionism, passages of deep reflection about the requirements of a civilized government, criticism of military and political leaders and religion. The first edition was reviewed by The Times, which described it as containing material sufficient for two good books and one bad one, with the bad one being the more interesting.

About the British attitude to war: " ... there are many people in England, and perhaps elsewhere, who seem to be unable to contemplate military operations for clear political objects, unless they can cajole themselves into the belief that their enemy are utterly and hopelessly vile. To this end the Dervishes, from the Mahdi and the Khalifa downwards, have been loaded with every variety of abuse and charged with all conceivable crimes. This may be very comforting to philanthropic persons at home; but when an army in the field becomes imbued with the idea that that the enemy are vermin who cumber the earth, instances of barbarity may easily be the outcome. This unmeasured condemnation is moreover as unjust as it is dangerous and unnecessary... We are told that the British and Egyptian armies entered Omdurman to free the people from the Khalifa's yoke. Never were rescuers more unwelcome." [ref] cite book|author= Peter de Menddelssohn| title=The Age of Churchill: Heritage and Adventure 1874-1911 |publisher= Thames and Hudson |place=London |year=1961 | page=132 : Mendelssohn quotes The River War, Vol. II, pp. 394-395.[/ref]

1902 abridged, one-volume edition: In 1902 Churchill had become a member of parliament. It was thought that the commentary about some of the people mentioned had better be excised in a revised edition. The book was thus edited down to one single volume, removing approximately one third of the total.

Much of the removed content included passages where Churchill recounted his own experiences, as he had done in other works, such as The Story of the Malakand Field Force. This removal gave the revised book a somewhat different feel to these others, and to its original form. Other removals included discussions on the ethics of warfare and Churchill's own opinions of events. The revised book was described as an authoritative history of the war.[ref]Peter de Menddelssohn (1961). The Age of Churchill: Heritage and Adventure 1874-1911. London: Thames and Hudson. p. 133. [/ref]

The book was republished numerous times over the twentieth century, with increasing amounts of excisions.

[Source:] Winston S. Churchill (1899). The River War (first edition, two volumes). London: Longmans, Green & Co.. 

I feel this Wikipedia entry cleary documents that the quote in question is from the first edition of the River War, and the Wikiquote entry should be updated accordingly. (Check the citation info in the Wikipedia article ...)

Update made. Archimedes (talk) 19:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

He was a gallant man ...

I have deleted this "quote", which was at the end of the section On childhood and youth, because I believe it is spurious ( and probably vandalism ). I have tried various searches in an attempt to locate more info, but the only items that I found were two Google results that were directly related to this Wikiquote article. It is also grammatically incorrect, makes no sense, etcetera. It is the sole contribution made by an anonymous user at IP address 202.93.8.10 on 19 November 2006. Archimedes (talk) 18:17, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Always prepared for martyrdom

Added this quote to the section On childhood and youth (which is where a large # of other quotes from My Early Life are already recorded), with page info and a link to the Wikipedia article for My Early Life; have not yet removed duplicate entry in the Unsourced section. Archimedes (talk) 19:35, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

On Joan of Arc

I have placed a copy of this quote, with page # info, in the section A History of the English-Speaking Peoples; have not yet removed entry from the Unsourced section. Archimedes (talk) 20:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Miscellaneous Updates

I have now removed a number of duplicate quotes from the Unsourced section; also tried to restore that section to alphabetical order of quotes; and indented some comments there. Archimedes (talk) 03:00, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Entries for the Story of the Malakand Field Force ; et. al.

Updated/reordered these quotes, including addition of a quote from the Unsourced section ( & deletion from that section ). Archimedes (talk) 04:13, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Other edits for name consistency [My Early Life] & other minor adjustments. Archimedes (talk) 17:46, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Be Ye Men of Valour : Dates et. al.

Added entry for this radio broadcast; other minor cleanup also. I am wondering how others feel regarding their preferred format for dates. I see many dates in the form (1940-05-19), with links: I myself prefer the format (May 19, 1940) and I'm not sure having the links really adds a great deal. Archimedes (talk) 19:24, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

More minor cleanup; removed another duplicate quote. Archimedes (talk) 02:39, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Even more clean-up; moved some items to (hopefully) more appropriate locations; other minor edits. Archimedes (talk) 21:24, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

The fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists

I've seen this quote (with small variations) many times, but I'm having trouble finding the source. Can anyone shed some light on the source of the quote, or if it was said by Churchill at all or if it's been proven false altogether? --Thecakeisalie 13:18, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

false. search for Ignazio Silone.

I actually contacted the Churchill Society and asked them if Winston Churchill had ever said "the fascists of the future will be called anti-fascists" They replied saying there was absolutely no evidence anywhere of him ever saying is and so, therefore, he didn't say it. For some reason it has been attributed to him incorrectly. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.100.173.161 (talk) 12:56, 2 May 2010

It can't be traced back to Silone either 91.138.67.186 16:10, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

"therefore, he didn't say it" -- that's not valid reasoning. Fche (talk) 15:54, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it is valid when you include the premise that if someone coined a famous quote, there would necessarily be evidence of it (since it would have become famous by their saying it). Also, if there is no evidence something happened or a clear reason believe it did, so we switch to the default "it didn't" position.

That is not logical. In his time it is very likely many speeches were never recorded by any means and the only evidence would be hearsay for which there is plenty for this particular attribution. Lack of evidence of A is not proof of the opposite of A. Negative proof fallacy.

it is logical but perhaps not true, the fallacy only applies when there is an absence of proof not when there is proof of absence, if the premise is true that if Churchill said X there should be a record of it than the absence of any record of it is proof its just weak proof for the reasons you stated.

it is a modus tollens argument.

I've seen this quote attributed to different Italian writers but I could never find a definite source. 93.133.241.206 00:16, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

A similar quote is by another Italian writer, this one confirmed: "In Italia i fascisti si dividono in due categorie: i fascisti e gli antifascisti." [3] (In Italy there are two types of fascists: fascists and anti-fascists. Turion (talk) 11:36, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Ennio Flaiano https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ennio_Flaiano Mikedelsol (talk) 08:23, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

I've heard somewhere about Churchill saying it and did some research. It was attributed to Huey Long ("When the United States gets fascism it will call it anti-fascism") by american papers in 1930s and 1940s however in 1951 historian Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. contacted Robert Cantwell to whom Long is supposed to have said the famous quote.

Mr. Cantwell informs me (June 6, 1951), “It is not what Long said in his talk with me; but it is not basically opposed to what he said.” Actually the epigram ascribed to Long would be much more characteristic of someone like Lawrence Dennis

In a book by Lawrence Dennis "The Coming American Fascism" (1936) in the introduction segment Dennis writes

"The fascism most to be feared is the fascism sailing under false colors. Such a type of fascism will be the worse for the duplicity of its leaders, and much of the blame will attach to those soft-thinking liberal leaders who have sought to make of fascism a synonym for all that is socially iniquitous instead of a descriptive for a rational and workable social scheme to which they happen to be opposed."

Give me a pig!

Is there any source of the "pigs treat us as equals"-quote that attributes it to WC before, say, 1980? All the books I've found with it are suspiciously recent. 81.233.210.152 09:39, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Hey this page has to many quotes from a copyright source. Shouldn't anyone trim this?(StarWarsFanBoy 20:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC))

"Champagne should be dry, cold, and free."

Doing a google gives multiple pages saying that to be WC... but no clear sources really...

Is it him? Prob ably not you'd think? but can it be proven to be a missquote?

62.78.207.166 22:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Naval traditions quote in 'Misattributed.'

Wasn't misattributed, but isn't exactly accurate, either.

According to William Manchester ("The Last Lion, Volume 1: Visions Of Glory", Laurel Trade ppbk, 1983), Churchill proposed a change in strategy at a conference with Royal Navy admirals (p443, paragraph 2). They accused him of impugning the traditions of the Royal Navy, to which his reply was: "And what are they? I can tell you in three words. Rum, sodomy and the lash. Good morning, gentlemen."

Silversleeves.

problem

hello (14/07/2010)

one of the quotes in this page goes as follows:

   * Bessie Braddock: Winston, you are drunk, and what's more, you are disgustingly drunk.
     Churchill: Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what's more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you   will still be disgustingly ugly.

if you look at the article about Bessie Braddock, you will find that :

She is often erroneously credited with a celebrated exchange of insults with Winston Churchill, also ascribed to Nancy Astor:

   Braddock: "Winston, you are drunk, and what's more you are disgustingly drunk."
   Churchill: "Bessie, my dear, you are ugly, and what's more, you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly."[4][5]

this issue needs to be resolved

thanks

Yuval shifriss, Israel

---

I think the one which he is supposed to have exchanged with Nancy Astor is:

   Lady Astor:  If you were my husband I would put arsenic in your coffee.
   Churchill: Madam, if you were my wife I would drink it.

Simon, England

"A joke is a very serious thing"

Thousands of websites attribute this quote to Winston Churchill. Can anybody verify it? Thanks.--93.232.100.105 18:20, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

WHAT

Added it to the "misattributed" section, it's actually from Charles Churchill. Hypnosifl 07:40, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

If you have an important point to make...

"If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack."

I have seen this attributed to him various times, does anyone have a source for this? --UltraMagnus 09:29, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

"Never before in the history of human endeavour have so many..."

Isn't that a rather famous Churchill quote? I couldn't find it on the page and don't know exactly how it goes...

I think you'll find that the actual quote is "Never in the field of human conflict has so much been owed by so many to so few."

Agent0061 12:39, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

I remember it as: 'Never did so few people, torture so many others, in so short a period of time' on his boarding school teachers.It might be incorrect though. I read some 40 years ago. Forgot the source.

We have our own dream...

This quote appears in the article 'Later life of Winston Churchill' on Wikipedia. Being very new to Wikiquote, I do not want to make any changes just yet. But I believe this to be a very important and relevant quote. Perhaps one of the editors with the greatest interest in Churchill quotes could do the honours. Agent0061 12:36, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Quotes from Transwiki:Winston Churchill

These quotes are the remaining unconfirmed quotes and cites from the deleted Transwiki:Winston Churchill page:

• (We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.
  • Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

• Nancy Astor once told him "If I were your wife I'd poison your coffee," to which Churchill replied: "If I were your husband, madam, I would drink it." - Langford (2009) writes, 'Circa 1912 - Fred Shapiro (Yale Book of Quotations) tracks this to a joke line in the Chicago Tribune of 3 January 1900, but it was likely repeated to Astor by Churchill's best friend F. E. Smith, Lord Birkenhead.' p. 205

• He received a report from Admiral Pound, whom Churchill did not rate. On the report he wrote "Pennywise" - a reference to the old adage, "Penny wise and pound foolish."

• On being told by Bessie Braddock MP: "Winston, you are drunk, and what's more you are disgustingly drunk" he replied "Bessie, my dear, you're ugly, and what's more you are disgustingly ugly. But tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be disgustingly ugly."
  • Of this, Langford (2009) writes: '1946 - A world-famous exchange, and confirmed by a bodyguard present as WSC was leaving the House of Commons... WSC was not drunk, just tired and wobbly, which caused him to fire the full arsenal. WSC was probably relying on his photographic memory for this riposte: in the 1934 movie 'It's a Gift', WC Fields's character, when told he is drunk, reponds 'Yeah and you're crazy. But I'll be sober tomorrow and you'll be crazy the rest of your life.' p. 9

• Aneurin Bevan: 'Winston, for heaven's sake, your flies are undone.' WSC: 'You needn't bother yourself about that. Dead birds never fly from the nest.' Verified by Langford, 2009.

• I am prepared to meet my maker. Whether my maker is prepared for the great ordeal of meeting me is another matter.

• Upon being offered The Order Of the Garter after a particularly humiliating defeat in the election of 1945: "Why should I accept the Order of the Garter, when I have already been given the Order of the Boot?"

N.B: Langford, 2009: 'Ribald quotations are also often ascribed to Churchill, but he was not given to smutty remarks, and nearly always treated the opposite sex with Victorian courtesy.' p. 201

Posthumous Quote

Does the quote "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts" really deserve its position on this page? The source listed is a fictional book published nearly 40 years after he died that gives no detail or context to the quote. Several other books have used the quote, but none give any source attribution. The first part of the quote is also suspiciously similar to a quote attributed to Don Shula, which would actually make a lot more sense as a likely source. The earliest mentions on Google Books are in sports psychology segments, though the earliest reference is actually a slightly different version in the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen's magazine in the early 1950s. Seems to me like this should be considered unverified unless someone can find a better source. In any event, it's certainly not a post-humous quote unless it was in something written by the person that was later published after their death. Quotes that magically appear only after someone has died seem more likely to be misattributed... 206.169.16.82 02:58, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

"What are we fighting for?"

I have heard two variations of this story: Winston Churchill approached about closing West End theatres and refusing (QUote something along the lines of "Well what are we fighting for?" Variant is about cutting arts funding with the same response - but that seems implausible. Anyone shed any light? Thank you DS (22-05-13)

Fake quotes. See discussion here http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/technology/micwright/100010200/winston-churchill-on-arts-funding-how-twitter-twists-history-to-suit-modern-agendas/

"The arts are essential to any complete national life. The State owes it to itself to sustain and encourage them….Ill fares the race which fails to salute the arts with the reverence and delight which are their due."

https://richardlangworth.com/arts

-- SpareSimian (talk) 21:41, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

"It doesn't 'take all kinds,' it's just that there are all kinds."

This (or variation) has been attributed to W.C., but there is no mention of it here, or in the article, and I can't find any source or other attribution in a quick Internet search. Who said it? 67.101.25.167 05:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Attributed

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." The Postal Supervisor, Volumes 77–78, National Association of Postal Supervisors, 1986, p. 8. --Omnipaedista (talk) 09:41, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

"There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world..."

I noticed that the quote: "There are a terrible lot of lies going about the world, and the worst of it is that half of them are true." is listed as unattributed, but I found a reference in The Parliamentary Debates, 1906 which quotes Churchill. However, he attributes the saying to a "witty Irishman." --mikeu (talk) 03:36, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

There is another reference here, also attributed to "an Irishman." --mikeu (talk) 03:44, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Kites rise highest against the wind, not with it.

Is this an actual quote of Winston Churchill? I haven't found it on the talk page nor the actual page but I decided to ask you. It's often repeated, though. --Dharion (talk) 04:23, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Opinionated buffoons!

"Like the "I hate Indians" quote, this is also used by Churchill critics to as proof that Churchill fought for a raw white supremacism. However, The argument in 1955 was over unrestricted Commonwealth immigration, both sides had points. Look at Churchill’s overall record from a 50 year career–and what everybody else in his party was saying at the time."

What exactly is this comment doing here? I'm going to delete it, provided no-one has any objections. —This unsigned comment is by 144.173.178.250 (talk • contribs) .

Exchange with an aide/servant

Churchill: You were very rude to me, you know!
Aide (apparently Roy Howells): Yes, but you were very rude to me.
Churchill: Yes, but I am a great man.

Sources include: "Forty Ways to Look at Churchill (Gretchen Rubin, Random House, 2004); Churchill's Finest Hour (Mark Riebling, at City-Journal; reviewing Churchill by Paul Johnson, Viking/Penguin 2009); and Churchill by Himself: The Definitive Collection of Quotations, (ed. Richard Langworth, PublicAffairs, 2011; apparently cites Howells' memoirs of being Churchill's aide for 7 years).

Worth including? DragonflySixtyseven (talk) 14:44, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip.

This has been popping up a lot on the internet, but there's no evidence Churchill said it. Rather, it appears to be a variation of something said by the author Caskie Sinnett. I added it to the "Misattributed" section.Prebys (talk) 17:08, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

When I am abroad I always make it a rule…

• When I am abroad I always make it a rule never to criticize or attack the Government of my country. I make up for lost time when I am at home.
  • In the House of Commons (April 18, 1947), cited in The Oxford Dictionary of Political Quotations (1996), Jay, Oxford University Press, p. 93.

The problem is such a phrase can't be found in the Commons and Lords Hansard. Ain92 (talk) 10:35, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Disputed quote

I have removed the following quote from the "Disputed" section:

• Those who spend time researching quotes of accomplished men may consider such an endeavor time well spent. At the end of the day, all they have accomplished is the squandering of their own time. It is far wiser to spend that time actually accomplishing something than to quote others who have. There are those who quote, and those who do.
  • Though this quote was attributed to Churchill in social media posts, there is no evidence of Churchill saying or writing this quote. It was likely created by someone to make a friend of coworker look foolish for including too many quotes on their own social media page or e-mail signature.

"attributed ... in social media posts" is as good as made up on the spot. The section is for quotes that might or might not be true, not for quotes that are completely unfounded. --Prinsgezinde (talk) 19:22, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The account with Lady Astor was incorrect, Churchill did not say that, it was Lord Birkenhead. There is no evidence he said "Americans will always do the right thing, but only after they exhausted every other possibility" either.

The real vice is making losses

"It is a socialist idea that making profits is a vice. I consider the real vice is making losses."

Attributed to Churchill but I can't find any reputable sources.

source or disputed?

"When both sides lack arguments they start bombing countries." Gale Ronning (talk) 18:05, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Not just France but Champagne

"Remember gentlemen, it’s not just France we are fighting for, it’s Champagne!" https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/24/felicitylawrence

Oxford Dictionary of Humorous Quotations, attributed

Cagliost (talk) 14:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC)