Talk:Dasa

Surplus

• Aurobindo (1971), again, was an outspoken, witty, and penetrating forerunner in this regard: It is urged that the Dasyus are described as black of skin and noseless in opposition to the fair and high-nosed Aryans. But the former distinction is certainly applied to the Aryan Gods and the Dasa Powers in the sense of light and darkness, and the word andsah does not mean noseless. Even if it did, it would be wholly inapplicable to the Dravidian races; for the Southern nose can give as good an account of itself as any "Aryan" proboscis in the North. (24)
  • Aurobindo (1971), quoted from Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. chapter 3

• Why has the theory failed? . . . The theory of an invasion is an invention. This invention is necessary because of a gratuitous assumption which underlies the Western theory. The . . . assumption is that the Aryans were a superior race. This theory has its origin in the belief that the Aryans are a European race and as a European race it is presumed to be superior to the Asiatic ones. . . . Knowing that nothing can prove the superiority of the Aryan race better than invasion and conquest of the native races, the Western writers have proceeded to invent the story of the invasion of India by the Aryans, and the con- quest by them of the Dasas and Dasyus. . . . The originators of the Aryan race theory are so eager to establish their case that they have no patience to see what absurdities they land themselves in. They start on a mission to prove what they want to prove and do not hesitate to pick such evidence from the Vedas as they think is good for them.
  • (72-75) B. R. Ambedkar (1946) quoted in Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. ch 3

• “there is no evidence to show that the term [Dasa, Dasyu] is used in a racial sense indicative of a non-Aryan people” ...“it was the word of abuse used by the Indo-Aryans for the Indo-Iranians (sic)”...[the battles in the Rigveda Were not between Aryans and non-Aryans but between] “different communities of Aryas who were not only different but opposed and inimical to each other.”
  • Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches, Volume 7 edited by Vasant Moon, Education Department, Govt. of Maharashtra Publications, Mumbai, 1990. Quoted in Talageri, S. (2000). The Rigveda: A historical analysis. New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan.

• “(1) The Vedas do not know any such race as the Aryan race. (2) There is no evidence in the Vedas of any invasion of India by the Aryan race and its having conquered the Dasas and Dasyus supposed to be the natives of India. (3) There is no evidence to show that the distinction between Aryas, Dasas and Dasyus was a racial distinction. (4) The Vedas do not support the contention that the Aryas were different in colour from the Dasas and Dasyus.”
  • Dr. Babasaheb Ambedkar Writings and Speeches, Volume 7 edited by Vasant Moon, Education Department, Govt. of Maharashtra Publications, Mumbai, 1990. Quoted in Talageri, S. (2000). The Rigveda: A historical analysis. New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan.

B

• Emile Benveniste also notes that "the Avestan word for 'country' dahyu (anc-dasyu) has as its Sanskrit correspondent dasyu" and that this "reflects conflict between the Indian and Iranian peoples". But he tries to fit it into the invasionist paradigm by suggesting that "the name by which this enemy people called themselves collectively took on a hostile connection" and was later applied to natives of India: therefore in the Rigveda "dasyu may be taken as an ethnic" of India!
  • Emile Benveniste (BENVENISTE 1969/1973:260-261)quoted in [1]

• Interestingly, almost a full century after Indian scholars started objecting to the racial interpretations imposed on the Arya-Dasa dichotomy, Western scholars have recently also started drawing attention to nineteenth-century philological excesses. Levitt (1989), in his analysis of the word andsa, points out that even if it does mean 'noseless', an equivalent term in the language of the Bhil tribe is used in an ethical as opposed to a racial sense to indicate someone who is untrustworthy. Schetelich (1990), in turn, has analyzed the three occurrences of the phrase krsnd (or asiknl) tvac used in conjunction with the dasyu, which has generally been translated as 'dark skin' (247). Her conclusion is that the word is a symbolic expression for darkness. Witzel comments on the same term that "while it would be easy to assume reference to skin colour, this would go against the spirit of the hymns: for Vedic poets, black always signifies evil, and any other meaning would be secondary in these contexts"
  • quoted in Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. ch 3 .. (1995b, 325, fn).

D

• In die attempt to ransack the latter-day Sanskrit texts for proofs of Nordic characteris- tics, . . . we forget that if in latter day Sanskrit texts sentences such as "Gaura [white, yellowish), . . . pingala [reddish brown, tawny, golden], kapilkesa [brown or tawny hair]" are to be found in Patanjali's Mahabhasya (V. 1. 115) and if Manu has said diat a Brahmana should not marry a girl with pingala hair (38) there are other sentences in previous ages which contradict the strength of these characteristics. But with the help of these two sentences attempt is being made to prove the existence of Nordic characteristics amongst the Indian people. . . . The God Rudra is described to have possessed golden hair . . . yet we cannot make a Nordic viking out of him, as he had brown-hued skin-colour and golden-coloured arm. . . . Surely we cannot take the god Rudra as a specimen of race- miscegenation. . . . we beg to state that these allegories should be accepted as poetic fancies. They cannot be used as scientific data, for anthropological purpose.
  • (Dutta 1936, 248-252) quoted in Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. ch 3

E

• Evidence for the characterization of Dasas and Dasyus as black is tenuous in the extreme.... Even apparently clear indications of historical struggles between dark aborigines and Arya conquerors turn out to be misleading.... [The Dasas and Dasyus] appear to be demonic rather than human enemies.... It is a cosmic struggle which is described in detailed accounts that are consistent with one another.”
  • George Erdosy, “The meaning of Rgvedic pur: Notes on the Vedic landscape,” in From Sumer to Meluhha, ed. Jonathan Mark Kenoyer (Wisconsin: University of Wisconsin, 1994), p. 230-232.
  • quoted in Danino, M. (2009). A BRIEF NOTE ON THE ARYAN INVASION THEORY. PRAGATI| April-June 2009

• Arya and Dasa were only horizontal divisions, denoting groups of people living in their separate territories in north-western India... [dasyus were only] a segment of Dasas...[the term paṇi was used for people who were] rich and niggardly [and possibly] usurers, [and that the group of paṇis] cross-cuts the otherwise horizontal stratification of non-Aryas, [...] and may denote either an occupation or simply a set of values attributable to anyone.
  • Ethnicity in the Rigveda and its Bearing on the Question of Indo- European Origins. Erdosy, George. pp. 35-47 in ―South Asian Studies‖ vol. 5. London.. Quoted in Talageri, S. G. (2010). The Rigveda and the Avesta. New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan.

• The Iranian identity of Dasas and Dasyus is now well-established, a development which should at least put an end to the talk of the Dasas being ‘the dark-skinned aboriginals enslaved by the Aryan invaders’.
  • Elst, Koenraad (1999). Update on the Aryan invasion debate New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan.

• Among the Vedic terms figuring prominently in the AIT reading of the Vedas, the most important one is probably dasa. Dasa, known to mean “slave, servant” in classical Sanskrit, but in the Rg-Veda the name of an enemy tribe, along with the apparently related word dasyu, is interpreted in AIT parlance as “aboriginal”. More probably these words designate the Vedic people’s white-skinned n cousins, who at one point became their enemies, for both terms exist in Iranian, dahae being one of the Iranian tribes, and dahyu meaning “tribe, nation”. The original meaning of dAsa, long preserved in the Khotanese dialect of Iranian, is “man”; it is used in this sense in the Vedic names Divodas, “divine man” and Sudas, “good man”. In Iranian, it always preserved its neutral or positive meaning, it is only in late-Vedic that it acquired a hostile and ultimately a degrading connotation.
  • Elst, Koenraad (1999). Update on the Aryan invasion debate New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan.

• When it is said that Agni, the fire, “puts the dark demons to flight”, one should keep in mind that the darkness was thought to be filled with ghosts or ghouls, so that making light frees the atmosphere of their presence. And when Usha, the dawn, is said to chase the "dark skin" or "the black monster" away, it obviously refers to the cover of nightly darkness over the surface of the earth.
  • Elst, Koenraad (1999). Update on the Aryan invasion debate New Delhi: Aditya Prakashan.

• ...On the contrary, twice and in two different ways, the source text says it is the Dāsas and Dasyus who came from the west. It says that they have come to the “east” for a fight and that these “godless ones” are turned back “westward” (7:6:3); and it has them come from the westerly Asiknī/Chenab river valley to challenge and fight Sudās on the shores of the easterly Paruṣṇī/Ravi.
  • Elst K. The conflict between Vedic Aryans and Iranians Indian Journal of History and Culture, Chennai, Autumn 2015

• Admittedly, a few instances do refer very clearly to a military enemy identified as asikni/“black”. These are the bedrock of the racial version of the AIT, ensuring that the other times “black” is used, it is not interpreted metaphorically but “must” refer to skin colour. That racial interpretation has largely been discarded in scholarly circles, at least consciously (though still lingering somewhat through inertia), but still very alive in certain Indian political movements. They have been used to justify the methodologically unwarranted shift from linguistic to ethnic categories. ... This word asikni characterizes a military enemy in the Battle of the Ten Kings (RV 7:5:3, apparently repeated in 9:73:5), and is mostly translated or explained as “the black aboriginals” (eventhough they encounter the Vedic people from the west). Moreover, the Vedic priest Vasiṣṭha is described as śvitya, “white-clad” (RV 7:33:1), which some translators render as “white-complexioned” (thus Wilson 1997). But in fact, the enemies are led into battle by a king with an Iranian name, Kavaṣa, belonging to the Iranian Kavi dynasty, their tribal names and nicknames all have Iranian counterparts or are known from Iranian and Greek sources to refer to Iranian communities. Moreover, their religion is described as having the typical characteristics of Mazdeism: without Indra, without Devas, without fire-sacrifice etc.. Asiknī, “the black (river)”, is simply the Sanskrit name of the river whence they come, today the Chenab in West Panjab. Very obviously, the enemies of the Vedic people at that time, when Rg-Vedic books 7 and 4 and the contemporaneous parts of books 1 and 9 were composed, were Iranian, not “black aboriginal”. This is attested from so many angles that one tends to wonder how this mistake could have been made at all, and how the true Iranian identity of the Dāsas (Greek Dahai) could have been missed.
  • Elst, Koenraad (2018). Still no trace of an Aryan invasion: A collection on Indo-European origins.

• Never in world history has a silly mistranslation been politically more consequential. The projection of 19th-century colonialism and of the earlier subjection of the Amerindians by European invaders onto ancient Indian history has provided an illustration or justification to an array of modern political ideologies, all of a more or less sinister or destructive character. If Western scholars shy away from the OIT because of vague rumours associating it with Hindu Nationalism (though its founding ideologue V.D. Savarkar was an AIT believer while another Hindu Nationalist, B.G. Tilak, even cooked up his own variation of the AIT locating the Vedic Homeland in the Arctic), they should have all the more reason to shun their own AIT. After all, the latter has had many more political ramifications, for a much longer time, in many more countries, and not as a thought experiment of ivory-tower scholars but from a position of power whence it could inform actual policies. .. Moreover, one of these ideologies strongly associated with the AIT is National-Socialism. In order to justify the untouchability of the OIT, invasionist polemicists often try to liken it to Nazism (e.g. Pollock 1993 and Adluri 2011, both rebutted by Grünendahl 2012), directly as well as through the identification with Hindu Nationalism. Firstly, there is nothing Nazi about Hindu Nationalism, as I have demonstrated earlier at great length (Elst 2001 and 2007/1). Secondly, if there were anything Nazi about the OIT, that would still not make it untrue: rocket science is literally a creation of the Nazis and yet the Soviet Union and other countries have profusely applied it, rather than tabooed it because of its political associations. Thirdly, and most importantly in this context, there is nothing Nazi about the OIT, on the contrary. It is the AIT that served as the perfect paradigm of the Nazi worldview, and that was taught in the history textbooks under Nazi control. The AIT defenders are in the same camp as Adolf Hitler, the OIT is the opposite camp. (But let us remain clear that the well-known Nazi use of the AIT is not in itself a reason to object to the truth claims of the AIT.)
  • Elst, Koenraad (2018). Still no trace of an Aryan invasion: A collection on Indo-European origins.

H

• The Rg-Veda refers to the asikni or “black” people. Some uses of colour symbolism are simply applications of the universal tendency to represent negative properties with a black colour: “When there is sufficient context for interpretation, we find that the notions can at least equally well be read as an ‘ideological’ distinction between the ‘dark/black’ world of the dāsas/dasyus and the ‘light/white’ world of the āryas.” (Hock 1995/2:154) Or they may sometimes innocently refer to natural phenomena, e.g. kṛṣṇa tvac, 9:41:1: “the black cover”, is the night. Yet, the racial-invasionist reading is very common and still has academic sanction, e.g.: “Indra subjected the aboriginal tribes of the Dāsas/Dasyus to the Aryans.” (Elizarenkova 1995:36)
  • Hans Hock 1995/2:154) quoted in Elst, Koenraad (2018). Still no trace of an Aryan invasion: A collection on Indo-European origins.

• Hock (1999b) suggests that the reluctance to review this racial material is due to the failure to live up to the scholarly ideals of constantly reexamining the evidence. He, too, undertook a similar exercise by extracting all the passages that Geldner had construed in a racial sense in his translation of the Rgveda and found them all to be either mis-translated or, at least, open to alternative nonracial interpretation. The reason racial readings were preferred was due to the "quasi-scientific attempts to provide a justification for 'racially' based European imperialism. . . . Moreover, the British take-over of India seemed to provide a perfect parallel to the assumed take-over of pre-historic India by the invading Indo-Aryans".
  • Hock (1999b) quoted in Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. ch 3
  • 1999b. "Through a Glass Darkly: Modern "Racial" Interpretations vs. Textual and General Prehistoric Evidence on Arya and Dasa/Dasyu in Vedic Indo-Aryan Society." In Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia (145-174). Harvard Oriental Series Opera Minora 3. Ed. J. Bronkhorst and M. Deshpande. Cambridge: Department of Sanskrit and Indian Studies, Harvard University.

• Geldner's interpretation is almost consistently a racial one. Closer examination, however, shows that either within the same line or verse , or in a closely neighboring one, we find references to the sun, to broad light, or to red or fiery beings... The word tvac 'skin' ... does not necessarily designate human or animal skin, but can also refer to the surface of the earth. Examples of this occur in RV 1.79.3, 1.145.5., 10.68.4, and possibly 4.17.14. An important variant, in the expression roma prtivyah (1.65.8) 'the body hair of the earth' = 'the plants', suggests that the metaphor of tvac as the skin or surface of the earth was well-established in the poetic language of the Rigveda. In [RV 1.130.8, 9.41.1-5, 9.73.5] , therefore, the reference may well be to the 'dark earth' or 'dark world' of the dasas/dasyus, which contrasts with the broad light of the aryas, which is lit up by the sun or by 'fiery beings'... Moreover, in [RV 2.20.7 , 1.101.1] , Geldner's translations of the krsnayonih... as meaning 'having blacks or embryos of the blacks in their wombs' is quite recherché; a more natural interpretation would be 'having dark wombs', and this interpretation permits a reading 'having dark interiors' - which could refer either to dark interiors of the dasas forts or to the dark world in which the forts of the dasas /dasyus are located , in contrast to the 'light' world of the aryas. In fact the close similarity between the expressions... 'he created land for Manu' in [RV 2.20.7] and... 'making broad light for the arya' in [RV 7.5.3 - 6] provides strong support for the view that words for light and dark are indeed used to refer to the earth, land, or world of aryas vs dasas.
  • Hans Hock, Through a glass darkly: Modern racial interpretations vs. textual and general prehistoric evidence on arya and dasa/dasyu in Vedic society. 145-174. Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, interpretation, and ideology, Proceedings of the International Seminar on Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, 25-27 October, 1996, ed. by Johannes Bronkhorst and Madhav M. Deshpande. Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, 3. 1999

• In light of the preceding discussion, the racial interpretation of the of the notions light/white and dark/black found in Geldner's translations and echoed or precedented in numerous other publications must be considered dubious. Where there is sufficient context for interpretation, we find that the notions can at least equally well be read as an ‘ideological’ distinction between the ‘dark/black’ world of the dāsas/dasyus and the ‘light/white’ world of the āryas.”
  • Hans Hock, Through a glass darkly: Modern racial interpretations vs. textual and general prehistoric evidence on arya and dasa/dasyu in Vedic society. 145-174. Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, interpretation, and ideology, Proceedings of the International Seminar on Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, 25-27 October, 1996, ed. by Johannes Bronkhorst and Madhav M. Deshpande. Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, 3. 1999

• The fact that racial interpretations arose in the 19th century is not surprising , given the prevalence at the time of quasi-scientific attempts to provide a justification for racially based European imperialism , and the well known scramble of the European powers to divide up the non-European world. Moreover, the British take-over of India seemed to provide a perfect parallel to the assumed take-over of prehistoric India by the invading ‘Aryans’... Words meaning white light are widely used in reference to the world of the Aryans or their gods, and so are terms meaning broad, wide (note the combination of broad and light in the uru jyotih broad light of [RV 7.5.3 - 6])... Note also the widespread use of uru- loka- 'wide space' found eg in RV 1.93.6.(Agni and Soma have made wide space for the sacrifice) and RV 6.23.7 (Indra is asked to create wide space for the worshipper) and note the related u loka- . The similarity to the uru jyotih found in some of our earlier examples goes beyond the fact that the two collocations are used in the same general contexts and with about the same meaning , and beyond the fact that the same adjective (uru) is used in both collocations - etymologically , loca is derived from the root ruc- shine and thus comparable in meaning to jyotih light.
  • Hans Hock, Through a glass darkly: Modern racial interpretations vs. textual and general prehistoric evidence on arya and dasa/dasyu in Vedic society. 145-174. Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia: Evidence, interpretation, and ideology, Proceedings of the International Seminar on Aryan and Non-Aryan in South Asia, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, 25-27 October, 1996, ed. by Johannes Bronkhorst and Madhav M. Deshpande. Harvard Oriental Series, Opera Minora, 3. 1999

• A closer study of all the passages that provide sufficient context for interpretation shows that the black or dark of the Dasas/Dasyus is not contrasted with the light or white skin color of the Aryas, but with their bright, sunny world. (236)... Even the expression tvac "skin" does not need to be understood literally, but can also refer to the surface of the earth. In general, the assumption of racial self- and external identification, as well as the alleged parallel with the English conquest of India for the time of the alleged Indo-Aryan immigration to India, is extremely questionable. (236-7)
  • Hock, H. H. (2002). Wem gehört die Vergangenheit?: Früh-und Vorgeschichte und indische Selbstwahrnehmung.

I

• One solitary word anasa applied to the Dasyu has been quoted by ... Max Muller . . . among numerous writers, to prove that the Dasyus were a flat nosed people, and that, therefore, by contrast, the Aryas were straight-nosed. Indian commentators have explained this word to mean an-asa, mouthless, devoid of fair speech. . . . to hang such a weight of inference as the invasion and conquest of India by the straight nosed Aryans on the solitary word anasa does certainly seem not a very reasonable procedure. (6)
  The only other trace of racial reference in the Vedic hymns is the occurrence of two words, one krishna in seven passages and the other asikini in two passages. One of the meanings of these two words is "black," but in all the passages, die words have been interpreted as referring to black demons, black clouds, a demon whose name was Krishna, or the pow- ers of darkness. Hence to take this as evidence to prove that the invading Aryans were fair-complexioned as they referred to their demon foes or perhaps human enemies as black is again to stretch many points in behalf of a preconceived dieory. (6-7)
  The word . . . Arya occurs about 33 times [in the Rgveda]. . . . the word Dasa occurs about 50 times and Dasyu about 70 times. . . . The word Arya occurs 22 times in hymns to Indra and six times in hymns to Agni, and Ddsa 50 times in hymns to Indra and twice in hymns to Agni, and Dasyu 50 times in hymns to Indra and 9 times in hymns to Agni. The constant association of these words with Indra clearly proves that Arya meant a worshipper of Indra (and Agni). . . . The Aryas offered oblations to Indra. . . . The Dasyus or Dasas were those who were opposed to the Indra Agni cult and are explicitly described thus in those passages where human Dasyus are clearly meant. They are avtata without (the Arya) rites, anyavrata of different rites, ayajavdna, non-sacrificers, abrahma without prayers, also not having Brahmana priests, anrichah without Riks, bmhmadvisha, haters of prayers to Brahmanas, and anindra without Indra, despisers of Indra. They pour no milky draughts, they heat no cauldron. They give no gifts to die Brahmana. . . . Their worship was but enchantment, sorcery, unlike die sacred law of fire-worship, wiles and magic. In all this we hear but the echo of a war of rite with rite, cult with cult and not one of race with race. (5-6)2
  • Srinivas lyengar, in 1914 quoted from Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. chapter 3

K

• The great difference between the Dasyus and the Aryans was their religion... It is significant that constant reference is made to difference in religion between Aryans and Dasa and Dasyu.
  • Macdonell, A.A. and Keith, A.B. 1912. The Vedic Index of Names and Subjects.

• It was already in the middle of the former century that Christian Lassen qualified the opposition of arya and dasyu or dasa as a contrast between different religions expressed by the age-old symbolism of black opposed to white and not as a contrast of darkcomplexioned to white coloured men.
  • Christian Lassen cited in Visva-bharati Annals,new Series 3. Maria Schetelich THE PROBLEM OF THE ‘‘DARK SKIN” (KRSNA TVAC) IN THE RGVEDA

M

• I have gone over the names of the Dasyus or Asuras, mentioned in the Rigveda, with the view of discovering whether any of them could be regarded as being of non-Aryan or indigenous origin, but I have not observed any to be of that character.
  • Original Sanskrit Texts on the Origin and History of the People of India, Vol. H by John Muir, Trübner and Co., London, 3rd edition, 1874.

• The usage of the terms Arya and Dasyu in the Bhaisajyavasta of the Mulasarvastivadavinaya is even more revealing of the overall Buddhist approach to inclusion. Here we have a story of the Buddha teaching his Dharma to the four guardian gods... Imparting the Buddhist teaching to these four guardians should be a breeze for the Buddha, But, there is a problem. Two of these, Dhrtarastra from the east and Virudhaka from the south, are aryajatiya. The other two, Virupaksa from the west and Vaisravana from the north, are dasyujatiya. The associations of arya with east and south, and dasyu with north and west, are very intriguing to say the least... The problem is that of delivering a single teaching which would be comprehensible to both the groups. If the Buddha were to teach only using the Arya language, the Dasyus might not comprehend it, and if he were to teach only using the Dasyu language, the Aryas might not comprehend. Finally, the Buddha decides to offer his teaching separately in both the Arya and Dasyu languages to these two groups... The Dasyu birth of the two guardians does not prevent them from receiving the teaching of the Buddha. Similarily, it shows the willingness of the Buddha (i.e. the Buddhist tradition) to adopt the Dasyu languages, if necessary, to impart the Arya Dharma to those who are Dasyu by birth. Trough a religiouos conversion, those who are Dasyus by birth emerge as the new spiritually Arya followers of the Buddhist path.
  • Mulasarvastivadavinaya. The Bhaisajyavasta of the Mulasarvastivadavinaya, quoted from What to do with the Anaryas? Dharmic discourses of inclusion and exclusion by Madhav M. Deshpande, 1996

P

• Parpola (1988, 127) notes that in Latin sources, Strabo (11.9.2) refers to a people called Parnoi who belonged to the Da(h)as, who were said to have lived in Margiana, from where they founded the Arsacid empire of Parthia. Actually, in this instance, we have a clear indication of a movement from east to west, since the Dahae came to live on the east coast of the Caspian Sea, north of the Hyrcania (Gurgun), where there is still a district called Dahistan. Parpola notes that the Parnoi corresponds to the Sanskrit term Pani (if this is accepted as a Prakrit develop- ment <*Prni). The Dahas/Dafiae correspond to the Dasa and the Panis to another tribe that fought the Aryan Divodasa on the banks of the Sarasvati.
  • Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. ch 7

• Sanskrit Dāsa- as an ethnic name thus has an exact counterpart in Avestan Dåŋha-, which stands for *Dāha-. The corresponding Old Persian ethnic name is Daha-. The plural form Dahā is included among the subjects of the Great King in the “empire list” of Xerxes, immediately before the two kinds of Sakā. Herodotus (1,125) includes the Dā´ai / Dā´oi (intervocalic h is omitted in Greek) among the nomadic tribes of the Persians. According to Q. Curtius Rufus (8,3), the Dahae lived on the lower course of the river Margus (modern Murghab) in Margiana, where they are also located in Ptolemy’s Geography (6,10,2). Eratosthenes, quoted by Pomponius Mela (3,42), notes that the great bend of the Oxus towards the northwest begins near the Dahae. Tacitus (Annales 11,10) places the Dahae on the border river (Sindes, modern Tejend) between Areia and Margiana.
  • Asko Parpola - The Roots of Hinduism_ The Early Aryans and the Indus Civilization-Oxford University Press (2015)

• It has, moreover, been an extremely consequential mistake. It has been taken over by numerous authors, including many who had no ideological agenda but naïvely lapped it up, e.g. Puhvel (1989:45): “the śūdras were an-ārya, ‘non-Aryan’, referring to the darker-skinned elements of the population (the Sanskrit term for ‘caste’, varṇa, means ‘colour’).” (In fact, varṇa means “one in a spectrum”: a colour in the visual spectrum, a class in the social spectrum, but also a letter in the sound spectrum, hence varṇamāla for “alphabet”.) The whole edifice of the “racial Aryan”, notorious through its Nazi application but equally popular in British colonial discourse and its Indian copycats, was based on a simple mistranslation.
  • Puhvel 1989, , quoted in Elst, Koenraad (2018). Still no trace of an Aryan invasion: A collection on Indo-European origins.

S

• The poet in this hymn supplies Indra to give support to those who drive away the evil and spread the light throughout the World (i.e. to the Aryan.) This spreading of light is a frequent motif in Rgvedic hymns ... Here, too, light is the antithesis to darkness. Soma, after all, is often called ‘shining golden, white, bright, goldencoloured {suklavarna) or ‘bringer of light’... (By the way, only at this place dasyu and krsna tvac really occur together in one sentence).
  • Visva-bharati Annals,new Series 3. Maria Schetelich THE PROBLEM OF THE ‘‘DARK SKIN” (KRSNA TVAC) IN THE RGVEDA

• Krsna tvac as a metaphor for darkness in the RV yet is no abstract idea, but in the minds of Rgvedic man a real part of the world, of the cosmological scheme. The poets describe it eventually as a cloth a cover which could spread over the earth. Darkness is related to the ‘depth’, the lowest region of the trinominal concept of the world-structure, being at the same time the home of the waters.... If at the three above cited passages krsna tvac is translated with ‘dark cloth, dark cover’ but not with ‘dark skin’ in the sense of ‘dark complexion’ it fits better into the habits of thihking of the Rgvedic poets, than the rather trivial translation current up till now.
  • Visva-bharati Annals,new Series 3. Maria Schetelich THE PROBLEM OF THE ‘‘DARK SKIN” (KRSNA TVAC) IN THE RGVEDA

• According to Aurobindo,... there are passages in which the spiritual interpretation of the Dasas, Dasyus and Panis is the sole one possible and all others are completely excluded. There are no passages in which we lack a choice either between this interpretation and a nature-poetry or between this interpretation and the reading of human enemies.
  • The Problem of Aryan Origins by K.D. Sethna, Aditya Prakashan, New Delhi, 1992.

• But even if we take the Vedas to be history, we must apply a chosen criterion consistently and not pick and choose according to our convenience. In a Rg verse (7.6.3) which speaks of the foolish, the faithless, the rudely-speaking, the niggardly, of men without belief, sacrifice and worship (nyakritu, grathina, mRdhra-vâc, paNi, aSraddha, avriddha, ayajña), we are also told that "Far, far away has Agni chased those dasyus, and, in the east, has turned the godless westward", a direction which is just the opposite of what the Orientalists have been telling us - not eastward and southward but westward. Why neglect this testimony?
  • Ram Swarup. On Hinduism (2000)

T

• That the racial theory of Indian civilization still lingers is a miracle of faith. Is it not time we did away with it?
  • Trautmann quoted in Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. ch 3

• "The first effort to find direct evidence of the physical features of the Indian aborigines in the Sanskrit texts dating from the time of the Big Bang that brought Indian civilization into existence . . . boiled down to a matter of noses"
  • (Trautmann, 1997, 197). quoted in Bryant, E. F. (2001). The Quest for the Origins of Vedic Culture : the Indo-Aryan migration debate. Oxford University Press. ch 3

• Given the nature (and, as we shall see later, the period) of MaNDala VIII, and the fact that all these three hymns are danastutis (hymns in praise of donors), it is clear that the friendly references have to do with the identity of the patrons in these hymns. A special feature of these danastutis is that, while everywhere else in the Rigveda we find patrons gifting cattle, horses and buffaloes, these particular patrons gift camels (ustra): at least, the first two do so (VIII.5.37; 46.22, 31), and it is very likely that the third one does so too (this danastuti does not mention the specific gifts received, and merely calls upon Indra to shower wealth on the patron). In any case, there is a fourth patron in another danastuti in the same Mandala (VIII.6.48) who also gifts camels. Outside of these three hymns, the camel is referred to only once in the Rigveda, in a late upa-mandala of Mandala I (I.138.2), where it is mentioned in a simile. ...In two of these cases, as we can see, the identity is self-evident: one patron is called a Parsava (Persian) and another has Prthu (Parthian) in his name. In sum, the Iranians are fully identifiable with the Anus, the particular Dasas (non-Purus) of the Rigveda.
  • About positive references to Dasas in the Rigveda. Shrikant Talageri The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis (2000)

• The first difference is that the term Dasa clearly refers to other tribes (ie. non-Puru tribes) while the term Dasyu refers to their priestly classes (ie. non-Vedic priestly classes). According to IV. 28.4, the Dasyus are a section among the Dasas. The Dasyus are referred to in terms which clearly show that the causes of hostility are religious (adeva, abrahma, etc). The family-wise pattern of references to them also shows that the Dasyus are priestly rivals while the Dasas are secular rivals. The Dasyus are referred to by all the nine priestly families of Rsis, but not by the one non-priestly family of Rsis (the Bharatas). The Dasas are referred to by the Bharatas (X.69.6; 102.3) also; but not by the most purely ritualistic family of Rsis, the Kasyapas, nor in the most purely ritualistic of Mandalas, Mandala IX. The Dasyus, being priestly entities, do not figure as powerful persons or persons to be feared, but the Dasas, being secular entities (tribes, tribal warriors, kings, etc.) do figure as powerful persons or persons to be feared. While both Dasas and Dasyus are referred to as enemies of the Aryas, it is only the Dasas, and never the Dasyus, who are sometimes bracketed together with the Aryas. The second difference is in the degree of hostility towards the two. The Dasyus are clearly regarded with uncompromising hostility, while the hostility towards the Dasas is relatively mild and tempered. The word Dasyu has a purely hostile connotation even when it occurs in the name or title of heroes: Trasadasyu = “tormentor of the Dasyus”. DasyavevRka = “a wolf towards the Dasyus”.
  • About the difference between Dasa and Dasyu. Shrikant Talageri The Rigveda: A Historical Analysis (2000)

• Significantly, of the three hymns which have nice things to say about Dāsas, VIII.5, 46 and 51, the first two are hymns which have camel-gifting kings with proto- Iranian names.
  • S. Talageri The Rigveda and the Avesta (2008)

From Hindu texts

Rigveda

• In VII, 6, 3 "Agni assailed repeatedly those Dasyus and from the east turned the unholy ones to the west (…púrvas-cakára-áparám…)”.
  • in Kazanas, N. (2002). Indigenous Indo-Aryans and the Rigveda: Indo-Aryan migration debate. Journal of Indo-European Studies, 30(3-4), 275-334.

• Agni born shone out slaying the Dasyus, the darkness by the light, he found the Cows, the Waters, Swar.
  • Rigveda 5.14.4, as translated and quoted by Sri Aurobindo (The Secret of the Veda)

Arthashastra

• A slave (dasa) shall be entitled to enjoy not only whatever he has earned without prejudice to his master's work, but also the inheritance he has received from his father.
  •  Arthashastra — Tanslated by R. Sharmasastry

• • This is all improperly formatted. There are many typos. And most of it is very prosy and unquotable. Ficaia (talk) 03:01, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I believe you are being too drastic in your removals, even of short quotes.

You say again that the quotes are improperly formatted, without giving your definition of it. But all that is really required are author name and name of the book, such that it is verifiable. Ebooks like epub don't show the page numbers. But I agree we should try our best, I will try to be more precise. But note that you have also added for example a Rigveda and Mahabharata quote without hymn and verse number, which is also not properly formatted.

There is no rule against quotes that are prose or statements of facts. Many articles have quotes from non-fiction books or newspapers, many of them were added by admins. May I remind you that you also added a quote by David Anthony that was prose and a statement of facts.

I do agree that it is better to quote shorter prose and that it would be an improvement if the quotes would be shortened. And some quotes could be moved to other articles.

You have replaced all the quotes with one quote about "Dasyus", in an article about "Dasa". (there is a difference between Dasa and Dasyu, even though until now they are in the same article). --ᘙ (talk) 09:25, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

As a native English speaker I can tell you that almost every single quote here has some kind of typographical error in it. And leaving that aside, most of this is unquotable. Consider the following: "Sanskrit Dāsa- as an ethnic name thus has an exact counterpart in Avestan Dåŋha-, which stands for *Dāha-. The corresponding Old Persian ethnic name is Daha-. The plural form Dahā is included among the subjects of the Great King in the “empire list” of Xerxes, immediately before the two kinds of Sakā. Herodotus (1,125) includes the Dā´ai / Dā´oi (intervocalic h is omitted in Greek) among the nomadic tribes of the Persians. According to Q. Curtius Rufus (8,3), the Dahae lived on the lower course of the river Margus (modern Murghab) in Margiana, where they are also located in Ptolemy’s Geography (6,10,2). Eratosthenes, quoted by Pomponius Mela (3,42), notes that the great bend of the Oxus towards the northwest begins near the Dahae. Tacitus (Annales 11,10) places the Dahae on the border river (Sindes, modern Tejend) between Areia and Margiana." -- This is not memorable prose. Ficaia (talk) 09:44, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Fair point about Parpola (but not all quotes were as "scholarly" as this one), Parpola was added because he is an important modern scholar on this topic, and this is the way that he writes, but I agree with you that the quote is not memorable. --ᘙ (talk) 09:59, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I think addding sections like Spiritual entities, Foreigners or barbarians, Demons and so on is a bad idea. The same verses have been interpreted (and translated) in very different ways by different scholars. Remember, this is a several thousand years old text. The standard process on wikiquote for theme articles is an alphabetical sorting.--ᘙ (talk) 10:56, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

You have not replied yet. --ᘙ (talk) 19:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Disputed

• Punishing the vowless (people) for the sake of Manu,
  He subjected to him the black skin.
  • Rigveda, I, 130, 8, as translated by Tatyana J. Elizarenkova, Language and Style of the Vedic Ṛṣis (1995), p. 36: i.e. "Indra subjected the aboriginal tribes of the Dāsas/Dasyus to the Aryans."
  • This is an example of a "racial" interpretation that "arose in the 19th century" and has been considered "dubious". The word 'skin' does not necessarily designate human or animal skin, but can also refer to the surface of the earth, i.e. the nightly cover of the earth. See the discussion in Hans Hock's Through a glass darkly (1999) or in Maria Schetelich (1990).