Talk:L. Ron Hubbard/Archive 1

repeated deletions by 83.248.150.251

The anonymous User:83.248.150.251 has repeatedly removed quotations that are widely attested to by reliable figures, with comments that they are "slander of a deceased person, proven false in a court of law", and that "slander as judged by a court of law is still slander. circulating a lie "widely" (=a few heavily slanted articles and books) may corroborate it, but still doesnt make it true".

I would like to know what decision in what court of law is being talked about that "proved" ANY of these statements to be slanders, and repeat my assertion that some of these statements, and others like them, were WIDELY reported well BEFORE Hubbard's death, by very well known figures, and in many major publications. Simply stating that it was slander, and stating that it was "proven" so in a court of law doesn't make that the truth either. A clear citation of the cases where this "proof" is alleged to have occurred, would be helpful to a case for having some of them placed in a "spurious" quote section, but not for having them erased as if they did not even exist. ~ Achilles 14:34, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

I have left a note on the anon's talk page that he or she must stop deleting quotes and treating the edit summaries as if they were discussions about inclusion. ~ MosheZadka (Talk)

Moshe, if malicious, intentional slander is not a "good reason" for correction, I dont know what is? From the Wiki policy: "We also want Wikiquote to become a reliable resource" ~ JuztMe

Which, if any, of the statements that are continually being erased was purportedly found to be a slander, and how that bears upon any of the other accounts, still has not been indicated, nor has a link to any available and pertinent information been provided, as it was with the quotations I have posted.

I do not have much time to spend here today, nor to investigate all the material I would like to, but am interested in factual accuracy and any details that can be provided for or against any of these statements.

A google search of "Scientology Munich court" yielded this result among others: http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/germany/disinformation.htm?FACTNet

which contains the heading:

Disinformation: Victory in Court?

Judgment "redefined"

The Scientology organization reports constant victories in court. 
Often their reports are false.

Links to any documents related to any case cited would be helpful to insuring that judgments actually made are what they are purported to be. ~ Achilles 22:26, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

In addition, if we do find such evidence, we should open a "Misattributed" quotes section, move those there, referencing the judgements. ~ MosheZadka (Talk) 12:50, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

You don't get rich writing science fiction

The section explaining this quote only gives 2 possibilities, either that he was "disgusted with traditional religion" or that it never happened. In the interests of a NPOV, wouldn't it be proper to also include the possibility that he actually believed such a thing, and was just in it for the money? There certainly are a lot of people that believe that, and it seems just as relevant to include that interpretation as well.

Moved from article space

Regarding the above quote, someone (check the history?) added this:

This supposed quote is often used by critics of the Church of Scientology. (Note that most of the sources are books by anti-Scientologists.) While it's unclear whether or not Hubbard ever said this, there are two possible explanations for the persistence of this story. 1) That Hubbard DID say it, at a time when he was disgusted with traditional religion - and later founded a philosophy to proactively fill the void he felt existed in traditional religion (only to have his statement come back to haunt him) OR, he never did say it, and it's just the result of the discomfort with which fellow writers reacted to Hubbard's founding of a religious movement. Now, there is a problem with the Moskowitz reports. Specifically, a scientologist (Brian Wenger, wengerb@ccsua.ctstateu.edu) has sent me copies of 1993 affadavits by David A. Kyle and Jay Kay Klein. Both names are well-known in science fiction, and both say that they went to a talk by Hubbard, in Newark, on 7 November 1948. Both say that Hubbard made no such statement at that meeting. Hmm. At a guess, I would say that the LA Times and Mr. Corydon both got a confused story, but since Moskowitz is now dead, the point isn't easily resolved. One possibility is that Moskowitz himself got it wrong: his written works were notable for their mistaken dates, confusion of fact and opinion, and the like. He is remembered as a fine man, but a poor researcher. Also, the Church of Scientology claims that the quote belongs to George Orwell, spoken in 1938 to a friend, and misattibuted to Hubbard. You can read that on this page http://faq.scientology.org/page44b.htm

The talk page is surely the appropriate place for this personal opinion? CPMcE 21:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

How come the whole article has not a single pleasent quote in it? He wrote and spoke millions of words? 65.147.85.221 03:06, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

So put some in if you find them. 71.57.19.227 23:48, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

This page is a mess!

Once again this page is a mess. Some time within the next week I will attempt to organize it along the lines of standard chronological ordering of sourced quotes and sections and alphabetical listing of any unsourced quotes. "Subject" headings within articles on people are NOT standard practice here, and are discouraged. It might be time to officially reject them entirely as too prone to the suit the whims of those promoting particular agendas. ~ Kalki 17:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I have ordered quotes and sections chronologically. I might do more sourcing work here within a couple of months. It's not one of my top priorities. ~ Kalki 21:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This article is an absurd collection assembled by people who hate the man. 94.222.73.134 11:50, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

How about this quote?

When L. Ron Hubbard's son, Quentin Hubbard took his life, L. Ron allegedly said: "That stupid fucking kid! That stupid fucking kid! Look what he's done to me...." Source: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Library/Shelf/wakefield/us-02.html

I added it since nobody objected Nxsty 20:35, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Cleaned up a bit

I moved the unverified secondhand quotes into their own section. There's no need to get rid of them, but at the same time the Bare Faced Messiah stuff isn't sourced well enough to list as a real quote. -Aaron 167.136.142.30 06:48, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I have reverted these to the basically chronological listing they have been in for some time. They are for the most part widely published and widely reported quotes, often with multiple references by people of no hostile disposition toward Hubbard, as well as those who acquired such, and to relegate them all to a section of assertions that should be treated with greater skepticism than the others is inappropriate. All assertions should be treated with some degree of skepticism, by any one — especially those who seek to create absolute rules for other people to conform to. The most mature minds refrain from such childishness, so much as possible, rather than indulging in it wantonly. There are many rules that have been developing even here in this project, that I consider rather immature and childish, but I have not had time recently to get involved in much dispute about the creating or maintenance of poorly thought out rules, merely because of the prompting of a few people, or even one, who clamor for such rules, or even to get involved in stating my disapproval of these. The moving of all these quotes to a section of secondary status prompted my action here. ~ Kalki 12:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced, moved from article to talk page

Unsourced, moved from article to talk page. Cirt (talk) 10:33, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Unsourced

• A person with amnesia is looked upon as ill. What of a person who can remember only this life? Is this then not a case of amnesia on a grand scale?
  • The Phenomena of Death

• Man thought he had a human spirit. That is totally incorrect. Man is a human spirit which is enwrapped more or less in a mind which is in a body. That is Homo sapiens.
  • The Phenomena of Death

• Don't ever try to stop truth. It's the only thing that can go through 16-inch armor plate.
  • "How to Confront and Shatter Suppression PTS/SP Course"

• A person is either the effect of his environment or is able to have an effect upon his environment.

• All disturbance and chaos folds up in the teeth of truth.

• As a society declines, it more and more resorts to authoritarian teaching and attempts increasingly to impress on the individual that he must adjust to his environment and that he cannot adjust his environment to him. The educational process becomes one of semi-hypnotically receiving doughy masses of data and regurgitating them upon examination papers. Reason and self-determinism are all but forbidden.

• Communication is the universal solvent.

• Convince a man that he is an animal, that his own dignity and self-respect are delusions, that there is no 'beyond' to aspire to, no higher potential self to achieve, and you have a slave. Let a man know he is himself, a spiritual being, that he is capable of the power of choice and has the right to aspire to greater wisdom and you have started him up a higher road.

• How does life become totally painful? By total retreat. Total noninspection becomes total pain.... But existence is basically composed of a very few truths onto which have hung a great many artificialities and which man has adorned with enormous numbers of lies. And man is prisoner of his own shadows.

• Ideas and not battles mark the forward progress of mankind. Individuals, and not masses, form the culture of the race.

• If you are really willing to live, you first have to be willing to do anything that consists of living. Weird. But it's one of those awfully true things that you wonder why one has to say it. And yet it has to be said.

• Man has in his hands a lot of violent weapons. He doesn't have the moral standards to go with them.

• Never discuss Scientology with the critic. Just discuss his or her crimes, known and unknown.

• Now one of the things you can do with man is to get him to look up and find out that he can look through the shadows and look at the shadows and find out what they are.

• Perhaps it is natural that anyone who offered help would also be fought at first. Man is so used to fighting, so used to being fooled.

• Probably the most neglected friend you have is you. And yet every man, before he can be a true friend to the world, must first become a friend to himself.

• Single men and determined groups have been the only makers of space in which man could walk free.

• The best way to know any future is to cause one. And that's why, you see, when you start consulting the oracle at Delphi, you've taken a step downhill. You have assigned cause for the future elsewhere...
  So one predicts the future as much as one is cause. The future isn't a pattern laid out to abuse and bully you. The future is a beautiful playground that nobody happen to be combining.
  You talk about virgin territory— the most virgin territory there is, is the future. You can do anything you want with it.

• The differences between a competent person and an incompetent person are demonstrated in his environment (surroundings).

• The evolution of knowledge is toward simplicity, not complexity.

• The freedom of an individual depends upon that individual's freedom to alter his considerations of space, energy, time and life and his roles in it. If he cannot change his mind about these, he is then fixed and enslaved amidst barriers such as those of the physical universe, and barriers of his own creation. Man thus is seen to be enslaved by barriers of his own creation. He creates these barriers himself, or by agreeing with things which hold these barriers to be actual.

• The future will tell more than I could about the value of my work.

• There are few strong new forces in the world today. Man's civilization is tired, fed up with war, poverty and crime.

• There are no conflicts which cannot be resolved unless the true promoters of them remain hidden.

• There is only one security, and when you've lost that security, you've lost everything you've got. And that is the security of confidence in yourself; to be, to create, to make any position you want to make for yourself. And when you lose that confidence, you've lost the only security you can have. ... Self-confidence is self-determinism. One's belief in one's ability to determine his own course. As long as one has that, he's got the universe in his pocket. And when he hasn't got that, not all the pearls in China nor all the grain and corn in Iowa can give him security, because that's the only security there is.

• There is only one way, really, to get into a state of living, and that's live! There is no substitute for an all-out, over-the-ramparts, howling charge against life. That's living. Living does not consist of sitting in a temple in the shadows and getting rheumatism from the cold stones. Living is hot, it's fast, it's often brutal! It has a terrific gamut of emotional reactions.

• Those fields which most depend upon authoritative opinion for their data least contain known natural law.

• To say that I have found the answer to all riddles of the soul would be inaccurate and presumptuous. [But] in the knowledge I have developed there must lie the answers to that riddle, to that enigma, to that problem— the human soul— for under my hands and others, was seen the best in man rehabilitated. I discovered that a human being is not his body and demonstrated that through Scientology an individual can attain certainty of his identity apart from that of the body. We cannot deal in the realm of the human soul and ignore the fact.

• What it was, was the Loyal Officers were the body, the elected body; they called them the Loyal Officers, they were there to protect the population and so forth...and they had elected a fellow by the name of Xenu - ah, could be spelled X-E-M-U - to the supreme rulah, and they were about to unelect him: and he took the last moments he had in office to really goof the floof.

• We are slowly and carefully teaching the unholy a lesson. It is as follows: We are not a law enforcement agency. BUT we will become interested in the crimes of people who seek to stop us. If you oppose scientology we promptly look up— and find and expose— your crimes. If you leave us alone we will leave you alone.
  It's very simple. Even a fool can grasp that.
  And don't underrate our ability to carry it out.

• When you can be your own best audience and when your applause is the best applause you know of, you're in good shape.

• You can't have a civilization without able citizens. Five morons do not make a genius.

• You may have been taught that the mind (the spirit, the brain) is a very difficult thing to know about. This is the first principle of Scientology: It is possible to know about the mind, the spirit and life.

• The man on the cross, there was no Christ, but the man on the cross is shown as every man so of course each person seeing a crucified man has an immediate feeling of sympathy for this man.