Talk:Moshe Dayan

Fake quote?

RE:

We have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads. As quoted by Noam Chomsky in The Washington Free Press (May/June 2002)

The page that is linked to does not exist. It is not characteristic of Dayan, and Chomsky is not a reliable source of Dayan quotes. It is likely that either Dayan never said the above, or it was taken (grossly) out of context. 82.166.79.249 17:35, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

A new link has been made to the original article. Davecornell

I've moved this quote to "Attributed" because I suspect the only English source for the quote is Chomsky himself, who seems to have had an agenda in repeating this quote as often as possible. It may be from his 1991 book Deterring Democracy (or its 1992 edition with a new afterword), but I found it repeated in at least seven different Chomsky books from 1996 through 2006 (not to mention the essay now cited in our article and at least one other essay in a collection by various contributors). Every Google Book Search instance I found ultimately traced back to Chomsky, except possibly:

• Finkelstein, Norman G. (2005). Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History. pp. p. 16. ISBN 0520245989. 

… which I couldn't preview online. I may take a peek at this later today at the library to see what I can find there. Meanwhile, a non-reliable source suggests the origin of Chomsky's comes from "Yossi Beilin, Mehiro shel Ihud 42-43 (Revivim, 1985), a Hebrew book written by Israeli dove Beilin". I invite our Hebrew readers to see if they can find and cite any original version of this they can find. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 06:36, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Update: the Finkelstein citation is irrelevant. I was trying to track down Antony Loewenstein's use of this Dayan quote on page 95 of his book My Israel Question (ISBN 0522852688), and I read the wrong note. (Google Book Search often leaves out pages in its previews, perhaps to reduce the sting of arguable copyvio, and I'd failed to notice that I'd jumped a chapter sifting through the citations in the "Notes" section.) The problem remains that we do not have an original reliable publication for this infamous quote. We could use some help here. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 16:43, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Corrected dead link listed as "non-reliable source"

This is confirmed Dayan, the source is: Yossi Beilin, Mehiro shel Ihud (Revivim, 1985), 42 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.11.1.130 (talk • contribs) 18:07, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I've already pointed out that an unreliable source makes this claim. Just repeating it doesn't make it any more reliable. It would help if someone would can read Hebrew could take the trouble to find this book, examine the passage, and quote both the original and a translation, preferably with some surrounding material to show that they aren't just repeating what others are claiming. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 19:22, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

What about a new section labeled "Attributed"? It's a quote from Chomsky's writings attributed to Moshe Dayan. Davecornell 22:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. The quote is famously attributed to Dayan by Chomsky, but we don't yet appear to have enough evidence to declare it either well-sourced or misattributed. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 02:06, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how to use wikipedia, sorry, but I'm doing research on this topic at the moment and this page sprung up on a Google search. I'd just like to point out to whoever reads this that the "continue to live like dogs" bit of the Dayan quote can be found in Idith Zertal and Akiva Eldar, "Lords of the Land", p13 of the English paperback edition. Both are mainstream Israeli scholars with impeccable credentials. I don't see why the quote is surprising, Zertal and Eldar place it in internal discussion between Dayan and Shimon Peres. I'll also just add for good form that the claim that Noam Chomsky is unreliable is absurd, he footnotes everything and it would be a simple matter to confirm whatever he wrote, but that's another matter I suppose.

--—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.134.148.59 (talk • contribs) 18:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the assessment that the original quote, as truncated by Chomsky, did seem wildly out of character for Dayan. Dayan was not foaming-at-the-mouth aggressive like that, he ended 1948 at what's known today as the Green Line when others wanted to keep going, he relinquished the Temple Mount to the Jordanian Waqf... The full quote from the original book does make more sense. It puts it in context as strategic bargaining, not a sincerely held position, and the author notes that he was speaking specifically of refugees in West Bank in case Jordan rejected peace. It might be one of those daily 95 dangerous or 3 bad ideas, sure, but the Chomsky truncation really divorced it entirely from context for dishonest political purposes. --Scharb (talk)

For a discussion, with the full quote and context translated from the Hebrew, see http://volokh.com/posts/1207367339.shtml

Unsourced

Wikiquote no longer allows unsourced quotations, and they are in process of being removed from our pages (see Wikiquote:Limits on quotations); but if you can provide a reliable, precise and verifiable source for any quote on this list please move it to Moshe Dayan. --Antiquary 20:43, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

• Freedom is the oxygen of the soul.

• I know of nothing more exciting than war.

• If you want to make peace, you don't talk to your friends. You talk to your enemies.

• Our American friends offer us money, arms, and advice. We take the money, we take the arms, and we decline the advice.

• We have returned to the holiest of our Holy Places, never to part from it again.
  • On the unification of Jerusalem by Israeli forces

Media:Example.ogg

Many issues which have been brought in the Moshe Dayan article are inaccurate and are the propaganda of the leftist miniminority in Israel

There has been a constant Jewish population in Israel since the time Joshua entered the land 3500 years ago. When he entered the land he gave the Canaanite residents who lived in most of the country three choices. Leave the land, or try to make war with the invaders, or assimilate into the Israeli nation. There were seven tribes that made up the Canaanite people. One group known as the GirGashi got up and left andresettled in Africa. The people of Givon and a large amount of the Hitite tribe have assimilated. most of the residents decided to attack the newcomers and were demolished, most of which were killed. Besides the Cananite people there were the Philistines who lived in two main territories. There were periods of peace

Many issues which have been brought in the Moshe Dayan article are inaccurate and are the propaganda of the leftist miniminority in Israel

There has been a constant Jewish population in Israel since the time Joshua entered the land 3500 years ago. When he entered the land, he gave the Canaanite residents who lived in most of the country three choices. Leave the land, or try to make war with the invaders, or assimilate into the Israeli nation. There were seven tribes that made up the Canaanite people. One group known as the GirGashi got up and left and resettled in Africa. The people of Givon and a large amount of the Hitite tribe have assimilated. most of the residents decided to attack the newcomers and were demolished, most of which were killed. Besides the Cananite people there were the Philistines who lived in two main territories. There were periods of peace and of war with the Philistines. There was a period when David when he was king of Judea and not yet king of all Israel, He was an ally of the Philistines. There is no connection between the Philistines and those who have called themselves Palestinians since 1967. They took on this name with the coaxing of the arch-terrorist Yasser Arafat (an Egyptian born celebrity who decided to turn the various unconnected people in Israel and the Part of the country the Jordanians took during the War of independence). When King Saul of the Israelites was killed in a battle with the Philistines, David became King of the entire Israelite nation, making Jerusalem the capital.For evidence of these facts there is the bible and also a book by Professor Adam Zartal, a famous archeologist who has dug up sites in Israel; his book "A Nation Born".
The major names in the article of Moshe Dayan, Morris, Chomsky, Beilin range fron the left to the ultraleft in Israel. They are a relatively small part of the population and very noisy,as typical of the ultraleft around the world. The population of Jerusalem the Capital of Jerusalem has been primarily Jewish since the Crusaders were kicked out of the country by the Salah a Din in the 13th century. When the Moslems came into Israel they found primarily Jews. Almost all the Arab villages and towns carry the the old Israeli names. This is how most of the previous Israeli names of towms and villages carry the same names as they had when the Israelites lived in the country. Israel lived between two great Kingdoms Persia to the East and Egypt to the south west and in much later times Rome to the North west. It is not true that Jews have shown up in 1882, and before that there were no Jews. The famous travelers who wrote books, Clemens, Tristam and many others, write about Jews they found living centuries in Israel like Tiberius, Zefat, Jerusalem, Pekiin. The cemetaries in Zefat and Tiberius can link this history.- Yaakov Hillel, Kibbutz Lavi