Talk:Theodor Herzl

What was the original?

Herzl did not speak Hebrew. He wrote 'Im tirtzu...' (fully 'im tirtzu, ein zo agada; ve'im lo tirtzu, agada hi ve'agada tisha'er', אם תרצו, אין זו אגדה; ואם לא תרצו, אגדה היא ואגדה תישאר, meaning, 'If you will it, it is no dream; and if you don't,a dream it is and a dream it will stay) in German. How was it in German? --Shunra

See my translation below. The source can be found here: the source in German Pashute (talk) 18:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

other English translation

Some write the English version as follows: "If you wish it, it is no legend;..."--83.36.35.170 16:07, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

In Altneuland, which is credited as the source for this quote, Herzl said "If you do not will it, it is only a fairy tale". Nowhere did it say in the book, however, that it would not be a fairy tale if you will it. The converse of a statement is not necessarily true. So I am not sure whether this converse that is often quoted is something Herzl actually said or if it was just a later interpretation of his words. Will someone please explain. --unsigned from ip 47.148.208.129

Hi anonymous, you got it all wrong.

1. Herzl wrote the book (Altneuland) in German and it was translated to Hebrew (with the Hebrew title "Tel Aviv" later adopted as the name of the first "Hebrew" city. It is the name of the town in the land of Babylon where Ezekiel meets his fellow countrymen and is flown from there to Jerusalem).

2. Herzl specifically wrote these short words: "Wenn ihr wollt, ist es kein Märchen" meaning if you will, this is no imagination, as a PREFACE to the book with a double meaning, as follows:

2a. as understood by the postfix (the "back of the book"):

But if you don't will, it may very well be only imagination that I dreamt... Even so, all real actions begin with a dream...

... Wenn Ihr aber nicht wollt, so ist es und bleibt es ein Märchen, was ich Euch erzählt habe.

Ich gedachte, eine Lehrdichtung zu verfassen. Mehr Dichtung als Lehre! werden die einen sagen - - mehr Lehre als Dichtung! die anderen. Denn jetzt, nach drei Jahren der Arbeit, müssen wir uns trennen, und es beginnen deine Schmerzen, du mein liebes Buch. Durch Feindschaften und Entstellungen hindurch wirst du deinen Weg nehmen müssen, wie durch einen finsteren Wald. Wenn du aber zu freundlichen Leuten kommst, so grüße sie von deinem Herrn Vater. Er meint: das Träumen sei immerhin auch eine Ausfüllung der Zeit, die wir auf der Erde verbringen. Traum ist von Tat nicht so verschieden, wie mancher glaubt. Alles Tun der Menschen war vorher Traum und wird später zum Traume.

According to this postfix the meaning of the short prefix is: If you wish, you may see this story as a mere imaginary story.

2b. But as understood by itself in the prefix to the book, Herzl meant it to be understood with its second meaning: If you wish, or: if you will, meaning: If you want something hard enough, it will not be a mere imagination or dream or story. It will become reality.

Here's a link to the source in German.

Most of the words have some English equivalent so its like saying:

Wenn-When ihr-your wollt-willed (wanted), ist es-it is kein-cannot (or not one) Märchen-merry-tale (fairy tale).

Wenn-when irh-your aber-about (but) nicht-not (nought) wollt-willed

so-so ist-is es-it und-and bleibt-believed (lives, stands) es-it ein-one Märchen-fairytale.

Pashute (talk) 16:49, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

unbalanced quote list

This quote list is seriously unbalanced. From The Jewish State, it omits the most famous quotes, but includes quotes seemingly selected to confirm an antisemitic narrative.

And the attributed ones are from antizionist sites.

This needs major editing. Ricardianman (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Why did you not edit it? I agree that it is written as a wikipedia article rather than wikiquote and that most of the "quotes" are actually arguments. So I will see what I can do. (Using Mark Twain as my guide) Pashute (talk) 18:57, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

OK I removed some unverified quotes, and for sly quotations taken out of context, added the context through the text, and a few remarks. Here goes... Pashute (talk) 21:46, 3 October 2018 (UTC)