Talk:Abraham Lincoln

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According to Snopes [1], the Lincoln quote about corporations is false. However, I find their evidence uncompelling (has anyone bothered to ask the purported recipient of the letter?). This seems to be a case for a good researcher.--Eloquence

from "Fake Lincoln Quotes" [2]: "historian Matthew Pinkser wrote on the website, History News Network, on June 3, the quote is nowhere in Lincoln’s collected works, and his official biographer called it ‘a bold, unblushing forgery.’" [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 08:28, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Racism in the past and present

I have just noticed that some remarks of Jefferson and Lincoln have today been posted, that anyone who is aware of history, and the pervasive influence of racist presumptions know are possibly, or even probably genuine, — I am familiar with such remarks by both men, and have not yet bothered to do any search to see whether these are accurate or not.
That there are racist ideas that have infected the minds of even brilliant people in the past, and many very unbrilliant fools even today cannot be denied. It is perhaps best that we are occasionally reminded of such stupidity, that we are aware of its severity, and less prone to fall into it ourselves. I am posting this remark in both the Lincoln and Jefferson talk pages. I hope that we can avoid becoming a place where such idiots as still hold such views will feel welcome to post their particular forms of nonsense, as if showing that some notable and otherwise admirable person (often with much less opportunity to become aware of the deficiencies of such ideas) made such comments ages, or even a few decades ago, as if they should be held up as if it were testimony that such inane ideas were right, and their own continued ignorance, bigotry and other forms of stupidity were justified. Moby 00:28, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Both quotations seem accurate, and do reflect the appalling prevelance of racism and other forms of bigotry in human history.
If the poster was attempting to show the deficiency of these individuals, rather than support for the inane ideas expressed, it should be remembered, that social environments shape one's ideas and perceptions, but the truly great focus upon shaping social environments through expressions that are true and beneficial, rather than those that are false or create needless hostilities and resentments.
There are many forms of narrow mindendness and presumption that persist even today, that many people remain oblivious to, or which they promote in various ways. No person is immune to being infected by extreme forms of nonsense taken for sense, especially when most of those around them are already profoundly infested, and have much invested in having such situations of intolerence of diversity become or remain an accepted norm. Moby 20:29, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Moby- The quotes are disturbing. My hope is that the person that posted them was not endorsing the comments. My hope is also that the person who posted them was not trying to defame an otherwise impressive record of admirable men (Lincoln & Jefferson). I think many of us would be more comfortable if the words had never been spoken, and had never been posted. However, the words were spoken and posted, and I think they show the extremely complex situation faced by Lincoln. I firmly believe that Abraham Lincoln had a heart to correct injustice, and end the evil and sinful institution of slavery. Few men in history would have had the courage and perseverance to see the war through to completion, and the elimination of slavery. His actions speak for where his heart really stood. If he truly believed the words in the quote, he would have never had the fortitude to stand strong during four years of carnage. Lincoln's leadership was instrumental in ending the institution of slavery. Ending slavery did not end racism, but I hope we all agree that it was a large step in the right direction, and we can all be thankful for Lincoln's fortitude in making it happen. Remember that during the debate, Lincoln was NOT president. Also, realize that if Lincoln was not elected, he would not be able to end slavery. To end slavery he had to be President. Lets consider the debate in question, and lets pretend that instead of saying what he said, he said the following: "I see a future in which Blacks stand on juries in judgment of whites. I see a future where Blacks not only vote, but elect their own to office. I see a future where black Men take our white daughters as wives, creating a new intermixing of the races. I see Black police officers given power to arrest white men." You know, at the time, Lincoln might have believed more in what I wrote than what he said, but you know, if he had said it he would likely have never been elected president- the country was just not ready for that statement. If he had not been elected president, it is likely that Slavery would have continued for at least another decade, if not more. We would be several decades behind where we are now as far as equality, etc. I am fearful that my comments may sound like “the end justifies the means”. I do not believe that the end justifies the means. Personally, however, I am willing to give Lincoln the benefit of the doubt, forgive the comments, and still consider him one of the best presidents our country has had . . . best for Black people, White people, all Americans, since he led us collectively out of the institution of slavery. Pjm-5/3/04

Nationalism was the growing political ideology of the time period, and like Peidmont in Italy, the unfication of the Germans under Prussia, and Japan's political centralism Lincoln fought the war to it's end not because of any idealist motivations of ridding the world of the evil of slavery, but rather to keep the country unified. You're putting words in a man's mouth Pjm, and you assume Lincoln to feel things which every historical documentation of him suggests he didn't. If you look at the quote of Ulysses S. Grant in which he states, "If I thought this war was to abolish slavery, I would resign my commission and offer my sword to the other side." you get a good glimpse and the mindset of the Union leaders.


[edit] No One Man Should Hold the Power

"Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose- and you allow him to make war at pleasure."

In the disputed, I have the complete text of this speech in a collection of his works Lincoln on Democracy, published well before the current war. I can get the bibliographical, assuming that this is the only problem, and that the speech is in fact known by whoever put it there, but nevertheless still disputed.

[edit] what southerner really called Lincoln the souths best friend?

http://www.sagehistory.net/reconstruction/topics/recon.html

I count about five people who are supposed to have said somthing to this affect after Lincoln's murder.

[edit] "If there is a worse place than hell, I am in it."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fredericksburg, and other web sources.

"If there is a worse place than hell, I am in it." Lincoln writing about the Union disaster at the Battle of Fredericksburg.

Goolrick, William K., and the Editors of Time-Life Books, Rebels Resurgent: Fredericksburg to Chancellorsville, Time-Life Books, 1985, ISBN 0-8094-4748-7, pp. 92-93.

[edit] Lincoln on prayer

"I have been driven many times upon my knees by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go. My own wisdom, and that of all about me, seemed insufficient for the day." Written by Lincoln to a friend after the Second Battle of Manassas. The web references several slight variations on this wording.

[edit] Dubious quote of Bismarck

I was initially moving a quote into order, and removing a dead link associated with it, but further research leaves me very unimpressed with claims of its authenticity:

  • The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man great enough to wear his boots... I fear that foreign bankers with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of America, and use it systematically to corrupt modern civilization. They will not hesititate to plunge the whole of Christendom into wars and chaos in order that the world should become their inheritance.

This is a highly dubious quotation, and the English statement seems to have originated in an anti-semitic booklet The Secret World Government or "The Hidden Hand": The Unrevealed in History (1926) by Count Cherep-Spriridovich, p. 180, which cites an earlier account in La Vielle France N. 216 (March 1921) of a German, Conrad Siem, who, it is claimed, Bismarck told in 1876:

The death of Lincoln was a disaster for Christendom. There was no man great enough to wear his boots. And Israel went anew to grab the riches of the World. I fear that Jewish Banks with their craftiness and tortuous tricks will entirely control the exuberant riches of America, and use it systematically to corrupt modern civilization. The Jews will not hesititate to plunge the whole of Christendom into wars and chaos, in order that "the earth should become the inheritance of Israel."

The 1926 document on the same page also cites the entirely bogus Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion as a verification of some its claims. As this appears to be, at best, a translation of a comment reported second-hand 44 years after the event, the levels of accuracy, legitimacy and relevancy of the quote itself, as well as any translation, I believe does not warrant its inclusion on the article page, and I decided to remove it entirely and place it here. ~ Kalki 18:33, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] You can X Y of the people Z of the time

Bob Dylan On Abraham Lincoln and the 'X Y of the people Z of the time' quote:

Somewhere in this period, Milton Hay of Springfield heard Lincoln speak offhand a rule or maxim in politics. Hay later passed it on to Joseph Fifer of Bloomington who found it so simple, so nicely singsong, that he couldn't forget it:
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool ALL of the people ALL of the time."
From: A Lincoln Album: Readings by Carl Sandburg. Caedmon TC 2015, 2 LP set, (c) 1957, last 2:25 of Side 1.

(mrflip) --70.112.187.200 22:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fool some of the people

Uses in Newspapers from 1886 to 1888

1886-10-29 Milwaukee Daily Journal p. 1 A Democratic speech
1887-08-26 NY Times p. 5 A prohibitionist speech
1887-08-27 NY Times p. 2 Editorial
1887-09-08 Times Trenton (NJ) p. 3 A prohibitionist speech
1887-09-13 Evening Gazette (Cedar Rapids, IA) p. 2 Just the quote in a column of short items
1887-10-07 Spirit Lake Beacon (IA) p. 8 Short item about Henry George
1887-10-13 Iowa State Reporter (Waterloo) p. 9 Same item about Henry George
1887-10-17 Logansport Daily Pharos (IN) p. 2 Editorial
1888-03-12 NY Times, p. 4, "Hodge Podge"
1888-04-03 Titusville Morning Herald (PA), p. 4 Ad for Lehman Ullman (clothier)
1888-04-20 Atlanta Constitution, p. 1, Article on Senate debate on South Dakota's Admission as a state
1888-04-20 Daily Republican (Decatur, IL), p. 2, Article on Senate debate
1888-04-20 Newark Daily Advocate (NJ), p. 3, Article on Senate debate
1888-04-20 Logansport Daily Pharos (IN), p. 3, Article on Senate debate
1888-06-06 Morning Oregonian (Portland), p. 4 Editorial
1888-09-06 New York Evangelist, p. 2 Article
1888-11-28 Freeborn County Standard (Albert Lea, MN), p. 16
1888-12-12 Puck, p. 258


Uses in books from 1888

1888 Protection Echoes from the Capitol, p. 140, Thomas Hudson McKee; W. W. Curry; Reports use by Senator McComas, Cong. Record, p. 3614

1888 An Open Letter to Hon. Henry Cabot Lodge William N. Osgood

By 1889, it was used in a speech in Bristol, England by John Morley (Times, London, Oct. 30, 1889, p. 6).

In 1905, there was an investigation by the Chicago Daily Tribune and the Brooklyn Eagle to discover whether Lincoln actually said this. This was reported in article April 15, 1905, "Lincoln's Phrased Proved Original", Chicago Daily Tribune, p. D2. It's too long to include the whole thing here--maybe 2000 words (also, I haven't finished transcribing it)--but it's far from definitive. If you ask everybody in Illinois if Lincoln said something 50 years ago, some people are going to say yes. The accounts do not all agree and some are definitely contradicted by other witnesses.

A footnote was added to the 1905 edition of Complete Works of Lincoln (p. 349), for Lincoln's speech at Clinton, Ill., September 8, 1858.:

The question has been widely discussed and still remains unsettled, as to whether Lincoln originated the memorable epigram: "You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all of the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time."

In 1905 the Chicago "Tribune" and the Brooklyn "Eagle" combined efforts in an endeavor to solve the enigma for all time. After investigation several witnesses were found, notably Lewis Campbell of Dewitt County, 111.; J. J. Robinson of Lincoln, 111.; and J. L. Hill of Fletcher, O., who agreed that Lincoln had expressed the sentiment, if not the exact words generally quoted. It is supposed that he used the phrase in the above speech while addressing the people of Clinton, though the "Pantagraph" fails to cite it. Naturally, newspaper reports in those days were never complete, and the editor on this particular occasion even apologizes for his lack of space to give the entire report of this speech.

  • Complete Works of Abraham Lincoln, v. 3, by Abraham Lincoln, John George Nicolay, John Hay, Richard Watson Gilder, Daniel Fish; F. D. Tandy company (1905)

(Tom Schwartz says the speech was actually September 2.)

There are other witnesses who put the quote in 1856.

Richard Price Morgan (1909, p. 102) puts it in Bloomington in 1856:

It was in the summer of the year that I received this letter — 1856 — that I stood next to Lincoln and heard him say: “You can fool all the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.” He was addressing an assemblage of about three or four hundred people from the raised platform of the entrance to the Pike House, in Bloomington, Ill., upon the subject of the Kansas-Nebraska Act, and reviewing the arguments of Douglas in support of it. His application of his epigram was so apt and so forcible that I have never forgotten it, and I believe that no verbal modification of it would be accurate.

  • "Lincoln at the Decatur Convention", Address of Richard Price Morgan of Dwight, Ill. at a Lincoln centenary celebration in Pontiac, Illinois, February 12, 1909, Abraham Lincoln, by Some Men who Knew Him, Pantagraph Printing & Stationery, 1910.


William Pitt Kellogg says (1909, p. 323) of Lincoln's "Lost Speech", May 29, 1856, at the Illinois Republic Party's first state convention in Bloomington:

It was in this speech, discussing the question of popular sovereignty, and declaring that Douglas's position upon the question of unfriendly legislation was rank sophistry, that Lincoln used the epigram: “You can fool all the people some of the time, you can fool some of the people all the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time.”

  • "Recollections of William Pitt Kellogg" (1909), Abraham Lincoln Quarterly, 3:319 (Sept 1945, No. 7).

But other recollections of the "Lost Speech" don't include this.


For completeness it's worth noting this report. Joseph Fifer says (p. 22):

That remarkable man Milton Hay—and Mr. Lincoln never had a better friend—told me that a saying of Lincoln's which all the world knows now was, “You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.” In 1894, after my term as governor, I made a speech in Piatt county, this state, in which I repeated what Milt Hay had told me. The speech was printed in the St. Louis Globe Democrat, the Chicago Inter-Ocean and other papers and thus the saying was first given publicity. None of the Lincoln biographers had ever discovered it.

Note that Fifer was wrong about being the first, since the quote had been used seven years earlier. It's not a first-person report and no details of where or when it was said are given. Also, Milton Hay (d. 1893) was the uncle of John Hay, and they did correspond about Lincoln, but John Hay was on record as not knowing the source of the quote (e.g. "Queries", New York Times, Feb. 25, 1905, p. BR126).

[edit] Corporations have been enthroned

I have found the earliest appearance of this quote yet.

Journal of United Labor
Vol 8, no. 20
Nov. 19, 1887
pg. 2

WHAT WILL THE FUTURE BRING

To those standing on the boundaries of the great unknown it is sometimes given to pierce the veil and give words of warning concerning events to come.

Under the halo of such an inspiration spake one for whose life the assassin was already seeking and who spake while almost within the shadow.

“Yes, we may all congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing a close. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. The best blood of the flower of American youth has been freely offered upon our country's altar that the nation might live. It has been, indeed, a trying hour for the republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. As a result of the war corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudice of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of the war. God grant that my suspicion may prove groundless.”

Thus spake the sainted Lincoln. These are not the words of a brain crazed with fanaticism, but of a patriot purified by the great ordeal through which he had almost passed. Less than twenty-five years have gone and the prophesy is partially fulfilled.

The mutterings of the coming storm may be heard on every hand, and who can foretell the end?

In very helplessness the finite appeals to the infinite for help and guidance.

[edit] Long enough to reach the ground

I commonly see this quote attributed to Lincoln, in reference to his legs. I'm not sure of the exact wording, or if it's even genuine, but it seems to be frequently quoted. It at least deserves mention in the "Disputed" or "Misattributed" sections if it isn't real, given how commonly people make the claim. Lurlock 22:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Lincoln's Monetary Policy

  • The following passage is the source of many supposed Lincoln quotes. Despite the quotation marks (in the original), the passage is Gerry McGeer's interpretation of Lincoln's policy. None of the sentences are Lincoln's.

Let us now, from his speeches and his messages to Congress, summarize the monetary policy that Lincoln, at the time of his assassination, was about to more clearly define and establish.

Lincoln's Monetary Policy

“Money is the creature of law and the creation of the original issue of money should be maintained as an exclusive monopoly of national government.

“Money possesses no value to the State other than that given to it by circulation.

“Capital has its proper place and is entitled to every protection.

“The wages of men should be recognized as the structure of government and in the social order as more important than the wages of money.

“No duty is more imperative on the government than the duty it owes the people of furnishing them with a sound and uniform currency and of regulating the circulation of the medium of exchange so that labour will be protected from a vicious currency, and commerce will be facilitated by cheap and safe exchanges.

“The available supply of gold and silver being wholly inadequate to permit the issuance of coins of intrinsic value or paper currency convertible into coin in the volume required to serve the needs of the people, some other basis for the issue of currency must be developed and some means other than that of convertibility into coin must be developed to prevent undue fluctuations in the value of paper currency or any other substitute for money of intrinsic value that may come into use.

“The monetary needs of increasing numbers of people advancing towards higher standards of living can and should be met by the government. Such needs can be served by the issue of national currency and credit through the operation of a national banking system. The circulation of a medium of exchange issued and backed by the government can be properly regulated, and redundancy of issue avoided by withdrawing from circulation such amounts as may be necessary by taxation, redeposit and otherwise. Government has the power to regulate the currency and credit of the nation.

“Government should stand behind its currency and credit and the bank deposits of the nation. No individual should suffer a loss of money through depreciated or inflated currency or bank bankruptcy.

“Government possessing the power to create and issue currency and credit as money and enjoying the right to withdraw both currency and credit from circulation by taxation and otherwise, need not and should not borrow capital at interest as the means of financing governmental work and public enterprise. The government should create, issue and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing of money is not only the supreme prerogative of government, but it is the government's greatest creative opportunity.

“By the adoption of these principles, the long-felt want for a uniform medium will be satisfied. The taxpayers will be saved immense sums in interest, discounts and exchanges. The financing of all public enterprise, the maintenance of stable government and ordered progress and the conduct of the treasury will become matters of practical administration. The people can and will be furnished with a currency as safe as their own government. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity. Democracy will rise superior to Money Power.”

KHirsch 15:57, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

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