User talk:Abd

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Hi, welcome to English Wikiquote.

Enjoy! -- Cirt (talk) 01:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Comment from village pump[edit]

Is Ningauble's comment accurate? Moulton had lead me to believe you had a topic ban regarding cold fusion, or maybe I misunderstood him. Was this the incident where arbcomm "shot the messenger"? Thenub314 15:19, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

If you want to ask me what happened at en.wiki, that's a very complex story, but let's start with the cold fusion topic ban. That's expired, a few days ago. So Moulton was correct about it.
As to the so-called "MYOB ban," (i.e., Mind Your Own Business), and yes, it's indef, Ningauble linked to the ArbComm case, it is RfAr/Abd-William M. Connolley; you can read that monster and try to find out what behavior of mine led to the MYOB ban, i.e., what had I done where they were trying to prevent a repetition? Let me put it this way: there wasn't any specific assertion, it was just an idea that came up during the case, rather abruptly reversing what had been proposed and considered before then. Because there was no underlying misbehavior pointed to, but only sort of some general opinion that I "talk too much," it was impossible to know what the actual purpose was, and that ban led to continued disruptive enforcement problems, wikilawyering to the point that the original language of the ban became interpreted opposite to its plain meaning, a huge mess. I don't think they will do it again!
This is the bottom line, though: my understanding is that ArbComm is very concerned about the possibility of offending the "core." If you get a number of administrators upset with you, even if you are right as rain, ArbComm is worried that if they don't get rid of you, the admins will up and leave. So you will see decision after decision, where an administrator has offended in some way, that the admin gets at most a troutslap. Whereas a lesser offense by a non-admin, they throw the book at him or her.
I had successfully challenged two admins for abusive actions. In the first case, the admin was reprimanded by ArbComm, in the second case, the one resulting in my ban, the fellow was actually desysopped. Basically, what I'd claimed was confirmed, but they decided to ban me anyway. The same crowd, which piled in with laundry lists of complaints about me, whose claims they seem to have been accepting, had been screaming for me to be banned since before the first case, simply for filing an RfC that was later 100% confirmed by ArbComm. It was actually open and shut. But the crowd didn't care about evidence. They cared about who was on their side and who apparently wasn't.
The same former sysop is currently the subject of another case, because he and his friends continued pretty much as before. ArbComm has, shall we say, some severe problems, and they don't seem to be even close to solving them. It's pretty well known: if you are not an admin, file a case claiming admin abuse, that's the end of your Wikipedia career. Yes, they shoot the messenger. I was warned that they would ban me, by a former admin, highly respected, who agreed with me about the abuse -- and who certified my original RfC. She knew what I was up against. It wasn't just one admin, it was a whole faction, basically the same faction that Lar confronted and that the current RfAr on Climate Change is about, and that many other RfArs have been about: Pseudoscience, Fringe Science, Cold fusion, and some others. You'll see the same names popping up over and over.
I wouldn't mention it if you didn't ask. --Abd 04:00, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

User:Abd/Erkut Erdogan[edit]

User:Abd/Erkut Erdogan has been listed at Votes for deletion. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/User:Abd/Erkut Erdogan. Thank you. ~ Ningauble 14:37, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

User:Augusto De Luca[edit]

A page that you have been involved in editing, User:Augusto De Luca, has been listed for deletion. All contributions are appreciated, but it may not satisfy Wikiquote's criteria for inclusion, for the reasons given in the nomination for deletion (see also what Wikiquote is and is not). If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/User:Augusto De Luca. Also, please consider improving the article to address the issues raised. Thank you. Mdd (talk) 03:02, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Wikiquote:Votes for deletion/Fausto Cercignani[edit]

I do not think linking to an inquiry at Meta was a kindness to these contributors: should nothing come of it then it need never be mentioned here, where it is an embarrassment. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:28, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps. However, I find it odd that you would object to my alleged lack of kindness, while yourself taking an action that could result in blocks, and without any warning to them, and without any attempt to guide them, to warn them if they might be violating policy, or to improve their work. It's an embarrassment to whom? My opinion is that they should know what's happening, they should not be kept in the dark.
These are not new editors, but all had edited the page, so that they would show up at VfD is normal, if they have watchlist notification enabled, and so the suspicion of socking was unwarranted, it would have to be long-term socking, in the absence of conflict, very unusual. Checkuser policy generally prohibits fishing like that. I've seen plenty of exceptions, and those exceptions represent a too-common willingness to violate policy, and policy exists for good reasons.
Are you claiming that an action on meta, that mentions the VfD, should not be mentioned in the VfD? --Abd (talk) 18:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
My action at Meta was an inquiry: a request for information. None has been forthcoming, so it has been inconsequential. My opinion is that they should not be confronted unless something more substantive or consequential comes to light. Being confronted with the inquiry might easily give them the impression that they stand accused, which they do not. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:36, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
This is long because many issues came up as I looked at this.
Ninguable, you did accuse them of suspicious behavior, when the behavior was normal for SPAs. They have not been "confronted" with the inquiry. This is what I wrote in the VfD:
I saw this VfD mentioned on meta.[2]. The three users mentioned there, and tagged here as SPAs, are not experienced users and should be handled with care and kindness. But they are not new users, they are apparently fans of Cercignani. They may need support in understanding what the Wikipedia article needs.
I did not question your tagging them as SPAs. We need to know that, even though it's irrelevant to the VfD itself, we need to know that they are not likely to understand Wikipedia and Wikiquote policies, guidelines and traditions, and cut them lots of slack. Their arguments will often be off-point. However, so were yours, and you don't have that excuse, as a Wikiquote sysop. So arguing with them, particularly over matters irrelevant to the VfD itself, was disruptive.
The arguments you gave were content arguments, i.e., that could mean that various quotes were not "quotable" for this or that reason. You raised notability issues and copyright issues. Those are all matters to address on the page and talk for the page. The deletion issue should be much simpler, and when complex content issues are brought to VfD, it causes unnecessary dispute and disruption. To be sure, you are not the only person who has done this, it's too common, on Wikipedia and on other wikis.
Deletion should be simple: if there is no Wikipedia article on the subject, or especially if a Wikipedia article has been deleted for non-notability, deletion of the page for non-notability of the subject is reasonable. As you know, that's a separate issue from quotability of a particular quote. There can be quotations from a non-notable person that are allowed, because the quotation itself is quotable (i.e., notable).
So if the page has non-quotable quotes on it, they should be removed, that is an ordinary editorial decision, which, if sustained, shows prima facie consensus.
Filing a VfD to effectively remove all the quotes is unnecessarily backwards, an attempt to bypass the ordinary editorial process. If all the quotes are removed and that sticks for a reasonable time, then even speedy deletion might be in order. Speedy deletion can avoid controversy, properly done. However, my guess, the SPAs and some other users might oppose removal of all the quotes. It requires a rough consensus to maintain quotes in the presence of controversy.
You have raised a copyright issue. That's a trump card. Again, however, copyright violation for short quotes is iffy. You raised the issue of quotation of most of a page, but the page consisted of two short quotes. You are applying a standard (50% of page) outside of the realm for which that standard was created. But because this is a content issue, to be addressed as we address such content issues (not with VfD!), this should not have been argued on the VfD page.
What you really should have done, I'd suggest, is withdraw the VfD without prejudice, once there was a more knowledgeable editor working on it, and worked on the content. If the content is gone, then VfD becomes appropriate. You could, with your opinion, simply delete all the quotes. If that sticks, you then refile. But I think you know that won't fly. Some would return. You could also wait for Wikipedia to delete the article. That's what those SPAs should know is possible, and it's very possible.
The "wallpapering," (the wikilinking of every bloody noun on the page, and then placement of quotes from the subject on all these pages?), is also irrelevant to the VfD. That should be discussed with these users. I've seen this before from Italian users, I wonder what the it.wikiquote practice is. Is it normal for wikiquote?
What I see among these quotes are re-quotations or paraphrases by the subject of well-known quotations from others, without attribution.
I am not yet convinced, myself, that there is any quotable material from this subject. But others may disagree, and that is a matter to determine by consensus.
In other words, Ningauble, you may be correct, that, in the end, the page will properly be deleted. But there is a process established -- or that should be established and made clear -- and that process will make the necessary decisions. By the way, what you wrote, yourself, about "without prejudice" would hold for every subject. That a page is deleted for lack of notability does not ever prevent the creation of an article in the future about the subject if quotable material appears and if the subject becomes notable (or evidence of prior notability is discovered and asserted, or it's found that deletion was in error).
Wiki practices can be arcane and impenetrable to newbies, who may readily make assumptions based on shallow opinions of what is "right." We can see that in the comments in the VfD.
My suggestion, Ninguable, is that as an administrator, you specially take steps to *guide* these users, in a maximally supportive way (while still standing for the quality of Wikiquote). Administrators who do that avoid damaging the wiki by driving away newcomers. You are wearing two hats here: as an admin and as an ordinary Wikiquote user, filing a VfD for a page you consider non-notable. I suggest realizing that, to newcomers and others, these hats cannot be clearly separated, so, again as an admin, you need act with special care even in your ordinary actions.
Thanks for being willing to discuss this.
One more comment, I noticed this on your talk page:
Note that the principal reason your contribution was deleted[1] is because the quoted person/source does not appear to be notable. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:48, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Nis Arend might be notable, that would take research, I did find an apparent reliable source quickly. However, this is the flip side of the same issue: there is no Wikipedia article. It is possible to do an end run around Wikipedia by showing notability here, and likely the user did not do that. Most new users have no idea what is necessary, and will fill a page with stuff from sources that don't meet reliability guidelines. But it only takes a little, perhaps, to show adequate notability: [2][]. [3] probably doesn't do it. I found indications of other material behind pay walls. I did not look thoroughly, and had this been me, I'd have encouraged the user -- who may know Nils Arend and have access to reliable sources that don't show up on Google -- to show notability (and maybe to go for a Wikipedia article.) This was an SPA, only edited your talk page (and has 2 deleted edits, probably to the page you deleted)
This is what you actually knew: yes, Nis Arend does not appear to be notable by Wikipedia guidelines. No evidence had been shown. On en.wikiversity, faced with a content problem like this, we would do one of two things: we would move it to user space, where the user may work on it, and we might tell the user what is needed, and assist, if anyone has time, or we might tag it for proposed deletion, which will normally give three months for improvement. If the user removes the tag without fixing the page, or doesn't accept the move to user space, then we would have a deletion discussion. We wouldn't speedy something like this, because it can strongly discourage the user from improving the page and it requires a sysop to make what can be a complex decision. We might also no-index the page, dealing with possible SEO motivations. If we do speedy it, we would undelete on request, maybe pushing it into user space at that time. We avoid RfD when possible. And almost always, we can avoid it.
What we find is that this creates minimum conflict and user dissatisfaction. We used to have many contentious deletion discussions, with, still, a lot of useless garbage in mainspace. Because the solutions I have described can be implemented by ordinary users, we are gradually cleaning up Wikiversity, organizing it. Without conflict.
(However, Wikiversity's mission is not only the collection of educational content, but also fostering "learning-by-doing," and users learn by working on material in their user space, so our mission is, overall, highly inclusive, we are not limited to notable topics. What I'm pointing to are techniques for avoiding disruption, some of which might work here.) --Abd (talk) 15:25, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
I am not going to respond to all of this, but I do have a few comments:
  1. Your understanding of the ordinary editorial process at Wikiquote is mistaken. When the content of a page is believed to be inapropriate, Votes for deletion is the process where the community discusses whether a page should be deleted or not. It is a discussion of content, and notability of the subject is but one of several aspect of the content that may be addressed.
  2. Apart from questioning the asserted standing of Brian Morris (who is cited in nearly 100 articles) to release the author's work, and from supporting your suggestion about improving the Wikipedia article, I do not believe I have made excessive digressions into matters irrelevant to the VfD itself. If you disagree see #5 below.
  3. Regarding kindness to newbies, having one's contributions questioned can be disconcerting regardless of the venue. (In the particular case of users whose special interest is the work of an academic, one might hope prior exposure to the rigors of academic debate would be good preparation, but that is not always the case.) I make no apology for cutting to the chase, but if you think this is actionable see #5 below.
  4. Regarding the separate case of Nis Arend, feel free to discuss it at WQ:DRV.
  5. Regarding conduct unbecomming an administrator of Wikiquote, feel free to discuss it at WQ:VOC.
Finally, please bear in mind that Wikiquote is unlike Wikiversity in many respects. Your experiences there may not be a good guide to appropriate practices on other wikis. (For example, your recent activities at the One Thing page are wholly inapropriate here, notwithstanding watever may be practiced at other wikis.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:05, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Indeed, Wikiquote is quite unlike Wikiversity. I'm proud of what I did on that page, and what I'm seeing is indication that I'm unlikely to find it useful to work on Wikiquote. I came here because the VfD was raised on meta, by you.
  • I certainly am not about to file a complaint about an administrator over what you have done, I don't file those things unless it's essential and relatively urgent, they can be highly disruptive. No, I make conclusions about the community by what it allows, and when I have a complaint about a community, my first response is to leave, until and unless some critical interest is involved. Those conclusions are all rebuttable, but only with actual evidence. Suit yourself. --Abd (talk) 18:27, 23 September 2014 (UTC)