Wikiquote:Village pump

From Wikiquote
(Redirected from WQ:VP)
Jump to: navigation, search
Create a new topic
Wikiquote discussion pages (edit) see also: requests
Village pump
comment | history | archive

General policy discussions and proposals, requests for permissions and major announcements.

Reference desk
comment | history | archive

Questions and discussions about specific quotes.

All Wikiquote: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5


Welcome, newcomers and baffled oldtimers! If you have a question about Wikiquote and how it works, please click the link above "create a new topic", and then you can place your submission at the bottom of the list, and someone will attempt to answer it for you. (If you have a question about who said what, go to the reference desk instead.)

Before asking a question, check if it's answered by the Wikiquote:FAQ or other pages linked from Wikiquote:Help. Latest news on the project would be available at Wikiquote:Community portal and Wikiquote:Announcements.

Before answering a newcomer's question abruptly, consider rereading Please do not bite the newcomers.

Questions and answers will not remain on this page indefinitely (otherwise it would very soon become too long to be editable). After a period of time with no further activity, information will be moved to other relevant sections of Wikiquote, (such as the FAQ pages) or placed in one of the village pump archives if it is of general interest, or deleted. Please consider dating and titling your discussions so as to facilitate this.


Site notice[edit]

Hello, just a random passer-by here. For as long as I can remember (i.e. many years), Wikiquote's site notice (MediaWiki:Sitenotice) has contained a link to "Merge your accounts". The SUL account merging program began in 2008, if memory serves me well, and seems to me to no longer be something that needs promotion at the top of every page. Would you consider removing this link from your site notice? Thanks, This, that and the other (talk) 09:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

  • Done. Cheers! BD2412 T 13:53, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Now the sitenotice looks rather barren. Should we add something else to it? BD2412 T 16:05, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
    We could dispense with the notice until such time as there is something new and important to notify everybody about; or perhaps we could add something like the MediaWiki:Anonnotice that is not being displayed to registered users. I dunno. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:58, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
    We could add links to useful pages like Wikiquote:How to edit a page for newer contributors to be able to quickly see and access. Here's my idea of a sitenotice that looks less empty:
    Welcome to the English Wikiquote! · Learn how to contribute · Help copyright cleanup
    Does that look alright? Wording can be changed of course. --GeorgeBarnick (talk) 21:45, 7 May 2014 (UTC)
    I am not thrilled about using the sitenotice for this purpose, or adding things to it just to fill it up. A welcome message does not need to be included in every single page view.

    Note that at Wikipedia the sitenotice is usually empty, and is only used for announcements of the highest importance to all users. It was used there only twice in all of last year: once for about eight hours to warn about a serious bug in page rendering, and once for about a week to announce discussion of a major change to the editing interface. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Demotion of administrators hear with less than 10 logged action in 2 years?[edit]

I have been thinking that we need to demote inactive admins here with less than 10 logged action in 2 years, since admin position is not "get it and have it for life". --~ Goldenburg111 20:33, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

User:UDScott: I would like your opinion on this because you're a bureaucrat here, thanks! --~ Goldenburg111 20:24, 9 May 2014 (UTC)
I certainly would understand marking such admins as being 'inactive' (probably even before the proposed length of time), but I'm not sure I understand the value in "demoting" them. As we seem to chronically be in a state of having a shortage of admins, I don't see the harm in such users retaining the admin rights should they ever return to active work here. After all, it's not like we suddenly do not trust them. And I know it does not happen often, but I have seen some "inactive" admins return, albeit briefly, on occasion to fix something or revert some vandalism. Again, I don't see the harm, but I'd certainly listen to others' opinions on the matter... ~ UDScott (talk) 19:49, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
I would support this with due process, such as a talk page message and an email giving them a window in which to become active again before demotion. BD2412 T 19:43, 13 May 2014 (UTC)
We do something like this at Wikibooks, which is my main project. The idea when the project was busier (I think) was that polices could possibly change over a long time and people might need to readjust when they came back. And as BD2412 suggests we always contact them first, via a talk page note and email. Today I see it being realistic about who is around, together with the minor security feature that it is less likley a derilict privilaged account will get hacked and used for no good. But even I admit that is only an academic concern. Thenub314 (talk) 19:54, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikidata Phase 2 for Wikiquote[edit]


(Sorry for writing in English. I hope someone can translate this for me where necessary.)

Not long ago we enabled language links via Wikidata for Wikiquote. This seems to have gone rather smoothly. Thanks to everyone who helped! But as you know this was only the start. What is actually more interesting is access to the data in Wikidata. We have planned this for June 10th (unless any issues arise). You will then be able to use the data in your articles. I hope this will open up a lot of new opportunities for you.

If you have any questions d:Wikidata:Wikiquote is a good place to find help.

On behalf of Lydia Pintscher, John F. Lewis (talk) 16:03, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I would like to know what data, specifically, is proposed to be used in Wikiquote articles. I note that the linked Wikidata:Wikiquote page "explicitly excludes the usage of Wikidata to store the actual content of Wikiquote articles." [emphasis in original] I think it should be proposed and discussed in concrete terms here, at Wikiquote, before any of this (non-content?) data is included in Wikiquote articles. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:30, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Nothing is being 'proposed'. This is the process of enabling the data access for Wikiquote so the local community can, through local discussions, use any data from Wikidata through Lua. No data is being included without the local community doing it thus a local discussion is unnecessary as this is being enabled on all Wikiquotes and is already enabled on Wikipedia and Wikisource with language links on Commons. John F. Lewis (talk) 20:05, 17 May 2014 (UTC)
Ok, I understand there is no proposal to use this data access mechanism for any particular purpose, just to enable its use for undetermined purposes. I am not sure discussion of purpose is entirely irrelevant, but if there is no proposal to actually use it then discussion might be considered moot if the rollout imposes no risk or overhead.

Looking for information about how Wikidata Phase 2 is used at our big sister project, I found Wikipedia:Wikidata, where Phase 2 is briefly described as specifically pertaining to infoboxes. This usage was discussed at the time the mechanism was being rolled out a year ago at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikidata Phase 2, while other uses (i.e. in article text) were deprecated, at least for the time being.

(Regarding infoboxes in particular, this wiki does not use them. They were discussed briefly a couple years ago at Votes for deletion/Template:Infobox, and the decision to deprecate them was recently ratified at a second nomination. However, some other language editions of Wikiquote do use them.)

Does anybody have some bright ideas about how we might use this data access mechanism, or is the rollout purposeless? ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:25, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm probably in the minority here, but I would move page content to Wikidata. Specifically, I would move every quote there and associate it with the information regarding the original author, work, publication date, topics, and notes on the quote, and make Wikiquote pages include quotes by calling them like a template. The actual pages would therefore only have a header providing biographical information about the person or a general description of the work or topic, and external links and categories. The quotes would be supplied automatically based on their relationship with the person or topic to whom the page related. Mechanisms would need to be devised to continue providing attributions and misattributions with the appropriate categorizations, but I think this would make many of our content pages much less haphazard in terms of the quotes that can be found on them. BD2412 T 03:29, 20 May 2014 (UTC)
re that, The monolingual data type is being worked on at the moment, this would allow for strings of text to be added with an associated language so this will allow the ability to move all quotes over to Wikidata and have them pulled from there. So what BD said is what will be possible in around a month. I'll speak with Lydia and see if I can get a rough date for this and discuss about the possibility of having this feature rolled out around the same date as this is being rolled out so Wikiquote users can start populating our database with quotes! :) John F. Lewis (talk) 14:58, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Although I think that would be great, please note my own disclaimer that I expect that I am in the minority in thinking so. Cheers! BD2412 T 15:16, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Maybe so but it is something the community can and should discuss. If anyone wants to start an official discussion over the matter in preparation, I'd be happy to check it regularly and throw in comments from a Wikidata user's perspective or a technical perspective. John F. Lewis (talk) 19:21, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I spoke to Lydia (sorry for the long delay :p), she said she is expecting the monolingual datatype to be released within the next 4 to 6 weeksish. John F. Lewis (talk) 16:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
I have refrained from comment thus far, as I am not yet adequately aware of the intricacies of the proposals and options being considered, but I presently have a definite antipathy towards what I perceive might be pushes to eviscerate MOST of the work done here, and eliminate many of the options, and relative ease with which they are done here, and to perhaps even more greatly empower those more inclined to highly constrictive constraints upon the presentation options than they already have been.
I do not claim to know to what extent my suspicions or perceptions might be correct, but they are what they are, and at this point I can state that I am certainly NOT inclined to support any such proposals. ~ Kalki·· 17:15, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

An example of how data can now be imported from Wikidata is authority control (that's authority in the library sense). The English Wikipedia article w:Bill Thompson (technology writer) has the template {{Authority control}}; but if you edit the page source, you will see that it includes no data. However, on the page, it is data rich - all the values are puled in from Wikidata. That template already exists on Wikiquote, but without the Wikidata integration - currently, the data has to be entered manually. There's an example on the corresponding article, Bill Thompson. Pigsonthewing (talk) 13:13, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer[edit]

Greetings, my apologies for writing in English.

I wanted to let you know that Media Viewer will be released to this wiki in the coming weeks. Media Viewer allows readers of Wikimedia projects to have an enhanced view of files without having to visit the file page, but with more detail than a thumbnail. You can try Media Viewer out now by turning it on in your Beta Features. If you do not enjoy Media Viewer or if it interferes with your work after it is turned on you will be able to disable Media Viewer as well in your preferences. I invite you to share what you think about Media Viewer and how it can be made better in the future.

Thank you for your time. - Keegan (WMF) 21:29, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

--This message was sent using MassMessage. Was there an error? Report it!

I just wanted to say that I love these beta features. --Spannerjam (talk) 08:42, 6 August 2014 (UTC)
This is no longer in beta: it was rolled out as a default feature more than a month ago, and is described by Wikimedia Foundation Vice President of Engineering and Product Development Erik Moeller as an official "core site feature".

Personally, I never saw the need for a slideshow gadget "to discover other images in a page" – they are already right there, on the page. However, it might be very convenient for folks who want to browse just the pictures, without all those pesky quotations and bothersome citations that for some reason clutter our pages (e.g. to scroll through the 23 images on today's Main Page).

From my perspective, the best thing I can say about it is that it does not affect me. I always open images in a new browser tab, which does not launch the new gadget. This innovation only comes into play if you click through an image to leave the Wikiquote page you are reading – something I almost never do. Does anybody else here actually use this gadget to browse images?

Even though I don't like it, and consider it a waste of programming resources, I wouldn't question the developers about it because they have made it abundantly clear that they are not interested in the opinions of mere contributors. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

I also find no use for the gadget here, along with many other things which get more vigorously imposed by some, but fortunately this is a development which can easily be turned off, on what is a prominent option on the image page, and I have done so immediately on each of the projects I have thus far encountered it. I suppose on some projects it might be useful for some, but I find it an impediment to actually accessing information on the images, and their use within projects and on others. I would actually prefer the default for it be "OFF" — but I do not consider it all that big a deal. ~ Kalki·· 21:55, 6 August 2014 (UTC) + tweak

Good and bad alterations in the new software[edit]

In the current iteration of software, the defaults for image displays seem to have extremely altered from previous ones, by which a regular column-like format for placement of most images could be maintained, with minimal disruption to the body text. I believe the new settings are aesthetically unpleasant, and sometimes devastating to the appearance of some pages where captions have become VERY narrow bands of text below very narrow images, much smaller than the previous default, which maintained a standard width for all thumbs that were not specified to have a different width. I have had to increase the default image size in my preferences to get most images to display to what I believe to be an adequate size, and this increases the size of some others to be far more than desirable sizes.

In searching the Preferences for some form of option to change what appears to be new default settings, I saw that the new software includes an option in the "Gadget" section to "Hide thumbnail images". This should be be a useful and welcome change to those with slower connections or who for any reasons simply do not wish to view any of the thumbnail graphics on pages. The settings do eliminate all "Thumbnail" images from pages of the wiki, while still permitting the fewer images that are not associated with Thumbnails to display, such as those on the Main Page and archives of the QOTD layout on it, such as Quote of the day/April 2014.

This new and very useful option addresses a long standing problem for some, and the programmers should certainly be thanked for adding it, but I also believe that the previous behavior of HOW the thumbnails display, when displaying, should be restored for aesthetic and practical reasons. I am posting this note to provide opportunities to make immediate use of the new good options to eliminate thumbnails from one's personal viewing of the wiki pages, and for anyone else to make comments on what I believe to be bad aspects of the new default displays of thumbnails, which now makes using them without specific "pixel" specs a far more haphazard process, as to how they will appear in relation to other images and other elements on the page. ~ Kalki·· 09:40, 28 May 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

Gadget-hideimages is not new, it has been around since last July. Note that it is not, as advertised[1], useful for users with slow connections. The css attribute "display:none" affects how the page is rendered, but the whole page is still loaded, images and all. The same thing happens when banners and closed discussions (and, formerly, interwiki links in the sidebar) are "hidden". ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:46, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, I am seeing this now too - and I am also dismayed. The uneven picture size makes the pages look much worse - and often the size is so small that it looks ridiculous (as does the caption). Not an improvement as far as I am concerned. On the positive side, having that new gadget is good and hopefully help those with slow connections. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:19, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
I do not actually understand precisely what is determining the current rendered size of various images, which can vary greatly, but believe a return to a relatively standard rendering width (which can be altered in preferences), is far more appropriate for use with captions, and for creating relatively predictable appearances of the images on the pages, than any other options could be. I hope that this can swiftly be restored. ~ Kalki·· 15:27, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Fully agree. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:41, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Another thing I have begun to notice with the new coding is that some pages apparently retain their old relatively stable arrangement when I open them, even with a browser with all caches purged, but if they are edited in any way the new coding alters the appearance of some images radically. This just occurred on a minor edit I did at Unitarian Universalism, and I had also previously noticed it on the G. K. Chesterton page and a few others. ~ Kalki·· 12:03, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
This is common for newly implemented changes in html generation: the effect is not seen until the cached version of the page on the server is refreshed. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I agree that the new default thumbnail sizing, where the width varies with the aspect ratio, is not an improvement. Given that thousands of manual width overrides have been removed in recent months in order to use uniform default widths, suddenly making the default non-uniform is an ill-considered and highly disruptive change! ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Background: The change in image sizing was proposed at mw:Requests for comment/Square bounding boxes (wherein there was scant comment), tracked at bugzilla:63903, and implemented in MediaWiki release 1.24wmf6. It was apparently decided without consulting the user base on any of the content wikis, but there is currently some discussion after the fact at w:Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Infobox Image.

Objections to this change have been raised at bugzilla:65945, where interested users may wish to join the discussion. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:20, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure bugzilla is the best place to have a discussion, it's not really meant for that. I will be following the discussion here, and there is some discussion at en:Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Infobox_Image as well. Can you describe to me: (a) the scope of the problem on wikiquote (can you give me some example pages), (b) whether this is an issue that can be fixed by altering templates (if so, which), (c) why wikiquote can/cannot use explicit width specifications, if that is important to the display, (d) how wikiquote dealt with differing user preferences in the past, and (e) more details on the changes "in recent months" which User:Ningauble refers to above? I'd like to gather more information about exactly how wikiquote is using "default-sized" thumbs. Thanks! cscott (talk) 19:27, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
I believe that it was more or less agreed to by most people in discussions on the matter, that the formerly widely used px specs on images should generally be removed, as they prevented those who wished to use smaller or larger px specs for various reasons from having these take effect on the images. I believe most involved here at this point strongly agree that for most images a standard width for most of them is preferable to the highly variable widths which the new software produces. I don't have time to comment much more, as I must be off again on a couple excursions soon, but I believe that whatever can be done to return to the previous defaults will probably be welcomed by most of us. ~ Kalki·· 20:38, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, User:Kalki. There's some more discussion over on enwiki. Are there templates in use on wikiquote which would make it easy to add a new image option uniformly? That is, if the solution is a semantic image option (like, say, "onecolumn") could that be added to the images in question? What would the best layout for wikiquotes be? Cscott (talk) 23:48, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
In reply to many questions from Cscott above:
  • (a) scope of the problem – I would describe the scope as very large relative to the size of this wiki. A couple examples are already cited in Kalki's post of 12:03, 29 May 2014 above. Further examples using a couple particular high aspect ratio images may be found here and here. (As noted above, you may need to refresh the server cache to see what has been wrought by the change.)
  • (b) altering templates – Image use in Wikiquote articles is not templatized. See examples cited above for typical image usage employing standard wiki markup.
  • (c) why wikiquote [sic] can/cannot use explicit width specifications – Of course we can. MediaWiki programmers can change the rendering of thousands of existing pages at one stroke. I don't think asking what is possible or impossible will shed much light on what is the best practice.
  • (d) how wikiquote [sic] dealt with differing user preferences – It has not been discussed much. User preferences settings are enabled on this wiki by the default WMF configuration, which we have not messed with.
  • (e) details on the changes "in recent months" – Here are two detailed examples, recent and older. Multiple users have been doing this, though not I myself. You can get some idea of the quantity by querying data dumps for edit summaries containing "strip out 144px spec" or similar language since about March 2013, though not all are tagged that way.
  • (other 1) exactly how wikiquote [sic] is using "default-sized" thumbs – We have been using them exactly the way they have consistently worked for years, and had expected them to continue to do.
  • (other 2) Are there templates in use – No. See (b) above.
  • (other 3) could (like, say, "onecolumn") be added – As stated this is contingent on (other 2), so no.
  • (other 4) What would the best layout for wikiquotes [sic] be? This question need not be couched in the subjunctive mood. As Kalki has already indicated above, common practice here has long preferred that images be aligned on the right with uniform width.
I would also like to comment on rationales given in the code commit for this change, which are two:
  • A "Thumbnails for portrait-orientation images have always been 'too big'" – This opinion, however sincerely felt, does not appear to be widely shared in the community of Wikimedia contributors. Is there evidence of which I am unaware that community consensus on some content wikis have called for deprecating them?
  • B "Parsoid/Visual Editor, which prefers square bounding boxes" – Notwithstanding the absurd anthropomorphism of this remark, I think the esthetic judgment of people in the community takes precedence over the putative preferences of a software construct that exists to serve them.
Let me also offer some answers to the all-important unasked question:
Why has Wikiquote been using the default?
  • (i) Not to belabor the obvious, when the default result is satisfactory it is more convenient than fiddling with parameters.
  • (ii) Heretofore, the default has provided the uniform widths referred to at (other 3) above. The desirability of this uniformity is indicated in an edit summary here. As mentioned by others above, the change wrecks this, which is the principal impetus for this thread.
  • (iii) Consistent use of defaults avoids edit warring over individual cases. Our Image use policy has not even needed to provide size guidelines because wide acceptance of the default makes it a non-issue.
  • (iv) As the size and resolution of computer screens in general use has increased over the years, the default width has been increased from time to time, and pages that use the default adjust automatically. I believe this underlies much of the activity at (e) above, as well as similar activity on past occasions when the default width increased.
  • (v) I am not sure this has been foremost in most people's minds when using defaults but, as mentioned by others above, overriding the default overrides user preference settings.
Don't get me started on whether Bugzilla is the right place for users to address program issues. I will only mention that users are regularly advised to do so, and that you would probably be unaware of this discussion had I not taken the advice. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:38, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for all the input, everyone. The change has been reverted and we'll return to the drawing board on this one. It's likely the 'upright' flag will be next to be examined (see bug 63904), so keep your comments and use-cases coming. We'll try to do a better job soliciting input outside the wikitech-l community next time, my apologies for that. But again, thank for you everyone who patiently provided input and feedback. The benefit of a quick dev cycle is that we can also quickly revert things when we get them wrong. Cscott (talk) 02:53, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you much, for the quick reversion to the previous norm. I just noted the circumstances as I edited the Sri Aurobindo and Rainbow pages, and edited Chesterton just as a third confirmation. Like I believe most would agree, the even width is MUCH better overall to view and to work with. ~ Kalki·· 11:37, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the user feedback seriously Cscott. (The commit message for the revert seems to indicate that only the Wikipedia discussion was deemed consequential, but we are used to being overshadowed by the mother ship here.)

As a retired software professional myself, I fully appreciate the difficulty of anticipating the impact that changes will have on user needs and expectations. Who knew that users considered width more important than largest dimension as the defaulting parameter? (From a user perspective, who knew that was what "square bounding box" meant?) I used to tell people, somewhat overstating the case, that nailing down user requirements is the hardest part of the job and everything else is easy.

"Agile" and "rapid" development methodologies can indeed make it easier to recover from missteps, but it is still the case, as Fred Brooks sagely said, that "much of the essence of building a program is in fact the debugging of the specification." Discovering requirements by an incremental process of trial and error is certainly better than committing to mistaken specifications in an all-or-nothing process, but it takes a thick skin when users and developers are each baffled about what the other is thinking. When users sometimes seem a bit testy, bear in mind that it is the developer's responsibility to figure out what the requirements are, one way or another.

I wish you the best of luck back at the drawing board. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:32, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Harlan Wolff[edit]

"There is a very simple reason that our democracies are destroying our freedoms and taking us on a cycle of endless violence. Medical opinion is that about three per-cent of the human race suffers from an absence of empathy. Unfortunately the greatest flaw in democracy is we don't get to choose who we want to lead us - it is the candidates that decide they should be in charge and we merely choose between these self-appointed megalomaniacs. As Plato said - anybody that wants to make a career in politics must clearly have something wrong with them. At the end of the Nuremberg Nazi war crimes trials the conclusion of academia was that 'evil is the absence of empathy.' It seems clear that democracy means we are merely offered the opportunity to choose our next psychopath. If you accept this simple conclusion then the enslaving of populations and the warmongering is explained, and the dreadful condition of the world we live in ceases to be an enigma." - Harlan Wolff —This unsigned comment is by‎ (talkcontribs) .

In response to the lucid but rather pessimistic outlook represented by the quote of this post, I respond with a quote of one my favorite optimistic princes of paradox, which I was just about to post at Now:
  • G. K. Chesterton, "In Defence Of A New Edition" - Preface to the second edition of The Defendant (1902)
So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 11:42, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Can we get some kind of a Wikiquote to Wikipedia page title comparison?[edit]

As a general rule, I like to match our titles to Wikipedia's corresponding titles, with the notable exception that Wikipedia uses singular titles for common nouns like Horse while we use Horses. However, Wikipedia also has frequent page moves when new topics occupy old names, and is inconsistent with how it treats those plural forms of singular common nouns. Basically, I'd like a list of all of our titles comparing them to whatever the corresponding title is at Wikipedia so that, for example, we can see if we have a common noun where they have the title of a work. Since most of our pages also link to the corresponding Wikipedia page, this will also help us to avoid misdirected links. If at all possible, I would also like to see when the title of the corresponding Wikipedia article changes, so that we can determine if we need to make a change to our own title. BD2412 T 15:43, 7 June 2014 (UTC)

Template:Authority control[edit]

Could someone good at template/ Lua please help at Template talk:Authority control#ORCID? Pigsonthewing (talk) 17:31, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikidata Phase 2 is here[edit]


(Sorry for writing in English. I hope someone can translate this for me where necessary.)

Today the ability for all Wikiquotes to query and access the data available in Wikidata has been enabled. This will open the opportunity for all Wikiquote's to start sharing the same data as other languages as well as other projects. You can read up on the Lua implementation of Wikidata at this page which includes basics of how to query the data and display certain properties. This section may also be of use to the community.

If you have any questions d:Wikidata:Wikiquote is a good place to find help.

Thanks, John F. Lewis (talk) 18:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Some questions[edit]

  • How you check the edit count of other users, is there any list?
  • How you check the number of articles created by a user?
  • How you check the recently created articles?

Thanks. OccultZone (talk) 14:10, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

There are a couple external edit counters shown at the foot of Special:Contributions/username called "supercount" and "yaec" (Yet Another Edit Counter). You can also see edit totals for each WMF wiki at Special:CentralAuth/username. Some discrepancy between the counters may be expected.

Articles created by a contributor can be seen at Special:Contributions/username by selecting Namespace = "(Main)" and checking the box for "Only show edits that are page creations". It includes non-article pages in mainspace, such as redirects.

Recently created articles are listed at Special:NewPages. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:29, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

(You may also want to see: WQ stats) ~ DanielTom (talk) 16:55, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks both! OccultZone (talk) 12:11, 18 June 2014 (UTC)

Twitter: WeAreWikipedia[edit]

The @WeAreWikipedia account on Twitter is run by a different Wikipedian each week. This week it's me, and I'm trying to include something about each sister project. Do drop by, and follow it if that's your thing. Pigsonthewing (talk) 14:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Media Viewer is now live on this wiki[edit]

Media Viewer lets you see images in larger size


The Wikimedia Foundation's Multimedia team is happy to announce that Media Viewer was just released on this site today.

Media Viewer displays images in larger size when you click on their thumbnails, to provide a better viewing experience. Users can now view images faster and more clearly, without having to jump to separate pages — and its user interface is more intuitive, offering easy access to full-resolution images and information, with links to the file repository for editing. The tool has been tested extensively across all Wikimedia wikis over the past six months as a Beta Feature and has been released to the largest Wikipedias, all language Wikisources, and the English Wikivoyage already.

If you do not like this feature, you can easily turn it off by clicking on "Disable Media Viewer" at the bottom of the screen, pulling up the information panel (or in your your preferences) whether you have an account or not. Learn more in this Media Viewer Help page.

Please let us know if you have any questions or comments about Media Viewer. You are invited to share your feedback in this discussion on in any language, to help improve this feature. You are also welcome to take this quick survey in English, en français, o español.

We hope you enjoy Media Viewer. Many thanks to all the community members who helped make it possible. - Fabrice Florin (WMF) (talk) 21:54, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

--This message was sent using MassMessage. Was there an error? Report it!

"Further reading" sections[edit]

Last year October 2013 (see here) on the Village pump there was that further reading section should be added to a corresponding Wikipedia article, and successively (see here) a discussion to update the Wikiquote:What Wikiquote is not.

Now I just noticed the Wikiquote:Citing sources still has instructions, how to create Further reading sections, see here. This might be updated as well. -- Mdd (talk) 11:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Request for comment at Talk:Isaac Newton#Quotes about Newton trimmed down[edit]

Removing 7 out of 42 quotes about Isaac Newton, see here, led to the dispute at Talk:Isaac Newton#Quotes about Newton trimmed down. Your further comments will be very much appreciated. -- Mdd (talk) 10:56, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

found the origin of this particular quote[edit]

I found this on and SB2 Troy Norrell is the guy who quoted this saying. This has been a term that is now used in military and Police training for the past couple of years. Makes a lot of sense.

"Amateurs train until they get it right," said Norrell of the intensive training. "Professionals train until they can't get it wrong."

 SBT-22 is the U.S. Special Operations Command's premier riverine command, focusing on insertion and extraction of SEALs and other special operations forces in special operations around the world.
 For more news from Naval Special Warfare Group 4, visit

Europe decimated[edit]

I just moved more than half the quotes in Europe to the talk page for being unsourced or undersourced. BD2412 T 18:15, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

TYT cite WQ[edit]

Cenk Uygur from The Young Turks, in a segment on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict, yesterday, shared a powerful quote by Martin Luther King, Jr. about love, citing the source from "WikiQuote" [sic]. Here is the video, for anyone interested. ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:08, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

He provides a good presentation of ideas, but it took me a while to actually notice the "Wikiquote" text — and once I did, I believed that I had noticed it before on some of his presentations — I am aware of other journalists and commentators who also prominently refer to us. Overall we are probably the most appropriate "first place" to look, though we still have many ranges of pages to develop. ~ Kalki·· 21:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)

Categorization of Husbandry under Category:Management, request for comment[edit]

When 4 out 5 dictionaries mention Husbandry as specific type of management (see Talk:Husbandry#Definitions of husbandry), it should be evident that husbandry could be listed under the Category:Management, yet this is removed see here. Please comment here or at Talk:Husbandry. -- Mdd (talk) 19:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

NPOV dispute at Category:Business[edit]

A minor disagreement between two editors about Categorizing Business under Science has escalated into an NPOV dispute about the Introduction defining scope for the category. The opinions of a few other editors would be welcome on the category talk page. Thank you. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:47, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

I have commented there. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:13, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
The initial idea is to simply mirror Wikipedia and Commons, how can this be considered NPOV? When there is support for initiatives like a Structured Wikiquote, why not support synchronisation between Wikiquote, Wikipedia, Commons and the other sisterprojects. -- Mdd (talk) 21:24, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
There are a lot of categorization elements for which we don't echo other projects - for example, not having categorization by year of birth and death, not categorizing films by studio, not having tons of categories about what town people were born in, what school they went to, and what illness they died of. Our categorization must serve the best ends of our particular project, after all. BD2412 T 11:29, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
This is not about some random specific Wikipedia categorization feature, but about a well established category, not only in Wikipedia or Commons, but in every mayor classification system for decades/centuries. -- Mdd (talk) 14:02, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
I understand that there is a scientific study of the economic relationships that define business. Nevertheless, I think it is a mistake to therefore consider all of "business" to fall under science. BD2412 T 15:17, 22 July 2014 (UTC)
Well that is something we both agree on, and is also stated at the beginning of the discussion. -- Mdd (talk) 16:41, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Two procedural points about this:

  1. Please discuss this at Category talk:Business, not here. This Village Pump notice is a request for comment there, not a fork for arguing the issue in multiple venues. Forking the discussion impedes the consensus process.
  2. Interested contributors are encouraged to seek consensus on the talk page, and to refrain from continuing to make tendentious edits to the content page (like this) until a consensus is reached.

Thank you. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

RfC for new proposal to categorize the Category:Business under Category:Applied sciences and Category:Society[edit]

Please comment here. -- Mdd (talk) 08:44, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Cezanne quotes[edit]

Looking for the origin and reference for the following quotes, supposedly said by Cezanne:

“I want to paint as I see,as I feel.”

"The turmoil of the world is resolved, deep down in the brain, into the same movement sensed by the eyes, the ears, the mouth and the nose, each with its own poetry"

“A work of art which did not begin in emotion is not a work of art”

The second one may or may not be authentic Cézanne, as it comes from Joachim Gasquet's Cézanne: A Memoir with Conversations, in a passage where scholars think Cézanne sounds suspiciously like Gasquet. I haven't looked, but my guess is that you should be able to find the others via Google Books and a bit of effort tracking down clues. - Macspaunday (talk) 13:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Updates to Wikidata documentation for Wikiquote[edit]

Hi all!

I am a current Wikimedia OPW intern working specifically on Wikidata outreach and wanted to let you know that the Wikidata documentation for Wikiquote has recently been updated and hopefully will prove useful for the Wikiquote community and encourage further collaboration. If interested, please have a look at Wikidata:Wikiquote. You can also leave any feedback on the talk page.

Cheers, -Thepwnco (talk) 20:04, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

The above linked overview of Wikidata:Wikiquote concludes the section on What is Wikidata? with this prospectus:

"Wikidata will provide structure for all the knowledge stored in its sister projects including Wikiquote."
[emphasis added]

When I last checked, this wiki's 24,572 articles contained more than 200 megabytes of content.[2] I do not doubt that the structure of Wikiquote might be improved in various respects, but from the Wikidata overview it is not clear to me how Wikidata will structure all of the knowledge represented herein, which consists mostly (What is Wikiquote?) of quotations. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:30, 1 August 2014 (UTC)

Dr Dobb's Journal[edit]

I've just created Dr Dobb's Journal and added an anon quite; I'd be grateful if someone could check (and perhaps improve) my work, please. Pigsonthewing (talk) 11:19, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

I've added a similar quote, at Burnett Streeter. How should these related items link to each other? Pigsonthewing (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
You could add a note after the quote & source, saying "Compare: [the other quote]", or just "Cf." ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Help page link in left column?[edit]


I apologize if this is the wrong place for this, but I'm not familiar with Wikiquote and have never done any editing here or even used the site as reader/visitor. Which is why I was clicking the link mentioned.

Is there a reason that "Help" in the main column on the left takes you to here, which is the MediaWiki Help page? Nothing there seems to mention Wikiquote and appears to be exclusively meant for MediaWiki users. Does Wikiquote really not have any help pages of its own/pages in help namespace? Not even a single general introduction page? I thought I would let someone know in case it's not supposed to link there. If I'm mistaken however, can someone please explain the reason for the lack of such a page? (It seems rather vital IMHO.) Thanks! LibertyOrDeath (talk) 22:18, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up, it needs to be fixed. It should be linking to Help:Contents. ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:50, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
Yes check.svgY Fixed. Good catch. (I am not sure when the default system configuration was broken – it used to work just fine.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Bot activity should be shown by default[edit]

Why has the default on bots in the Recent changes list become "Hide bots" and one must manually select "Show bots" ? There were extensive alterations and deletions from pages by CommonsDelinker‎ (talk · contributions) earlier today, caused by an overzealous and quite idiotic deletion at the commons, which fortunately was soon reverted. I restored the material here, but I would not have noticed ANY of these removals at all, had not the image deleted been a very prominent one on my "Chalkboard" page which I soon noticed. I do not believe registered users should need to "opt in" at every glance of "Recent changes" to keep track of bot edits. ~ Kalki·· 12:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

"Hide bots" has not recently become the default, it has been that way since before my time here. The way I deal with this is to maintain browser shortcuts ("bookmarks" or "favorites" or whatever various browsers call it) for permanent links to extended versions of "Recent changes", "New pages", &etc. I always use the extended versions, but I doubt that most users are interested in them. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:07, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
You might be right, but I was responding to the fact that I previously saw MUCH of that bot's activities, and could remedy or even revert the often extensive losses to pages that occurred. It probably relates to some relatively recent changes in that bot's status here. I have taken that into consideration, and will attempt to do a manual "Show bots" display of changes on a more regular basis. ~ Kalki·· 14:22, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
CommonsDelinker has been a locally registered bot since 2012,[3] but may not have been using the flag consistently. It is not registered at every wiki, and would need to keep track of where the flag is and is not allowed. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Letter petitioning WMF to reverse recent decisions[edit]

The Wikimedia Foundation recently created a new feature, "superprotect" status. The purpose is to prevent pages from being edited by elected administrators -- but permitting WMF staff to edit them. It has been put to use in only one case: to protect the deployment of the Media Viewer software on German Wikipedia, in defiance of a clear decision of that community to disable the feature by default, unless users decide to enable it.

If you oppose these actions, please add your name to this letter. If you know non-Wikimedians who support our vision for the free sharing of knowledge, and would like to add their names to the list, please ask them to sign an identical version of the letter on

-- JurgenNL (talk) 17:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Process ideas for software development[edit]


I am notifying you that a brainstorming session has been started on Meta to help the Wikimedia Foundation increase and better affect community participation in software development across all wiki projects. Basically, how can you be more involved in helping to create features on Wikimedia projects? We are inviting all interested users to voice their ideas on how communities can be more involved and informed in the product development process at the Wikimedia Foundation.

I and the rest of my team welcome you to participate. We hope to see you on Meta.

Kind regards, -- Rdicerb (WMF) talk 22:15, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

--This message was sent using MassMessage. Was there an error? Report it!

Usurpation being usurped.[edit]

Just a friendly notice to the community that (if my understanding of the situation is correct) as of September 15, there will no long be local usurpation of usernames for editors requesting a name change. All of that is going to be done globally, at Meta. BD2412 T 20:51, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Not just usurpation, but all username changes:  My understanding is that as of September 15 the ability to rename user accounts will be removed from the bureaucrat toolkit, and will be handled only by Global renamers and by Stewards. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:36, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
Those bastards! Well, people had better start seeking adminship, or we'll be sitting around with nothing to do. BD2412 T 18:42, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
And they say technology isn't destroying jobs... ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:04, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

It is About time that that the utterly RIDICULOUS blacklisting of About . com be removed.[edit]

Ever few months for some time now I have encountered this problem when I have tried to cite some relevant article at — which is a MAJOR source of info on the internet. I have NEVER understood by what ridiculous asinine irrationality this site was ever put on the blacklist here at all but it is about time that his ridiculous situation end. I just tried to cite an article at Urban Legends there, relevant to a bogus misattribution to Bill Cosby and was not able to make the necessary citation. This is just to post a note here to make this rather appalling situation a bit more prominent, and hopefully this idiocy will SOON be ended. ~ Kalki·· 23:34, 27 August 2014 (UTC) + tweak

  • I would support the removal of from the blacklist - I don't see the harm in being able to cite from this source. ~ UDScott (talk) 00:21, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Me too.'s articles are sometimes written by the experts and prolific writers on the subject. OccultZone (talk) 00:37, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Strictly speaking, the problem is not that we are unable to cite, but that we are unable to link to it. There's no rule requiring a citation to contain a link. BD2412 T 12:53, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
    While an online source can be unambiguously identified without literally linking to it, that is rather inconvenient for readers. If it is citable then it ought to be linkable, and if it is unworthy of linking then it is probably unworthy of citing. In extreme situations, where a site is generally execrable but a particular page reference is important, the page can be individually whitelisted. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree with de-blacklisting. It is listed under quote aggregators in the blacklist but that is an completely mistaken characterization for the whole site. should be used with discrimination because its quality ranges from excelent research to utter rubbish, but the same may be said of many other sites that are allowed here.

    When linking to sites having uneven quality I think it is particularly important to avoid using bare links (of which I disapprove generally) and to be sure the citation text adequately describes the nature of the linked source, if only to demonstrate that it is being cited with thoughtful discrimination. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:07, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

As their seems to be no significant opposition to the proposal, and I believe most people can recognize the site should never have been blacklisted in the first place, can this removal form the list now be expedited by an admin? I have already encountered another blockage to linking a relevant article there, from one here. ~ Kalki·· 16:09, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes check.svgY Done without objection. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:14, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, and blessings. ~ Kalki·· 12:21, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope[edit]

There has been long term suppression of attempts to add to or change the page for Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope and some other films beyond very narrow limits, often clearly excluding MAJOR statements from inclusion (as indicated by activity from November 2011 - present, and today, today, and today). This film certainly has been a major culture influence since its release, and, though I do not support treating ANY guidelines that might be devised as absolute mandates, ever, believe that this film, like the clearly major film Casablanca before it, should NOT be bound to the general guidelines for limits, which some would seek to treat as absolutely mandatory LIMITS for all.

As previously most people involved saw the clear good sense of REPUDIATING asinine absolutist ASSUMPTIONS in regard to Casablanca, I am requesting that another clear and definite exception to such general suggestions be made. This is to help prevent any further attempts at treating what should ALWAYS be regarded as guidelines developed as suggestions by users, and ALWAYS subject to EXCEPTIONS determinable by dialogue among those concerned with individual pages, AS IF they were ABSOLUTE mandates of either LEGAL requirements or of some "Absolute AUTHORITY" for ALL pages — which IS and has always been an assumption I hold to be fouler than any crock of crap, which I believe should always be denounced as firmly as possible by any responsible individual who rejects authoritarian absolutism in regard to all things of human value. ~ Kalki·· 17:58, 29 August 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

Oh so butthurt back there. You love ranting your mouth off when nothing's working your way have you? And that bold italics looks like lame comedy from where I'm sitting. Can't bear with the limits? You can leave. You're just as bad as AdamDeanHall and his sly editing. --Eaglestorm (talk) 05:49, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
I am just now checking in here, and I will state that you, Eaglestorm, whoever you are or whatever you might seek to seem, are someone who has long seemed a quite ignorant and confused person very prone to attempting to insult and denigrate those who do not agree with your obviously limited mental and moral capacities. I do not expect the truth of my words will be readily apparent to you, nor acceptable to your dispositions, but I do hope and trust what truths I indicate can and must become increasingly apparent to those who CAN be more aware and appreciative of general truths about MANY things, and that even you might grow to become more aware and appreciative of their truth and their worth. ~ Kalki·· 12:33, 30 August 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
I encourage everyone to please confine your remarks to the merits of the question, which is about improving the article, rather than the merits of people involved in editing or discussing the article. Thank you. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)
Examining the current version of the article, it seems to me that there is an excess of plot-centric material and a deficit of famously memorable lines. The Casablanca article is an instructive comparison: it features many quotes that are so widely repeated they are familiar to people who have never even seen the film – they have become proverbial – and it does not contain lengthy scenes of plot development (up to twice the recommended length for dialogues).

I am open to persuasion that an exception might be made for this film, but I think one might first give some attention to trimming less famously quoteworthy material and then see if there is room enough for famous quotes that have stood the test of time. It has been many years since I saw this film, first released before the average Wikimedian was born, but it seems to me that this arch melodrama had lines more memorable than much of what appears in the present article. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:51, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Grants to improve your project[edit]

Greetings! The Individual Engagement Grants program is accepting proposals for funding new experiments from September 1st to 30th. Your idea could improve Wikimedia projects with a new tool or gadget, a better process to support community-building on your wiki, research on an important issue, or something else we haven't thought of yet. Whether you need $200 or $30,000 USD, Individual Engagement Grants can cover your own project development time in addition to hiring others to help you.

Echo and watchlist[edit]

Special:Notifications & Special:Watchlist substantially overlap in functionality, except the former also contains extra (some non-public) events and doesn't provide with passive usage options (means to turn off web-nagging or email-nagging and to just keep visiting the page whenever I'm free), while the latter doesn't provide with options of active web-nagging notifications (but already provides email interface). Partly, in my personal view, the Echo/Notifications project was driven by low usability of watchlist; [4] comes to mind. It's also perhaps worth noting that Echo users aren't exposed to Special:Notifications unless thy have JavaScript disabled — in which case it's their only means of reading the notifications.

I'd like to get this done:

  1. Merge these two pages into one.
  2. To remedy large inflow of information, introduce multiple levels of importance of the web-nagging notifications (red for mentions, orange for thanks, blue for new watchlist items, etc and configurable in your settings).

Thoughts on both, please? --Gryllida (talk) 02:25, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

Change in renaming process[edit]

Part or all of this message may be in English. Please help translate if possible.

-- User:Keegan (WMF) (talk) 9 September 2014 16.22 (UTC)

WP-WQ links[edit]

I noticed a few days ago that although most of the pages I've created here on Wikiquote are linked to from Wikipedia, some are not. So I would be thankful if someone could add {{wikiquote}} to the external links sections of each of these pages at Wikipedia:

InfanticideShelly KaganHikaru no GoLustJohn ClevelandLe Roi et l'oiseauAlex JonesAnacreonAlexisDiphilus2016: Obama's AmericaGulliver's TravelsWilliam GiffordMinimalismBlank verseJason and the ArgonautsNicole OresmeBart D. EhrmanSarah Fyge EgertonTommy RobinsonDinesh D'SouzaLactantiusWilliam Henry ChanningMarco PoloJ. M. E. McTaggartFranz RosenzweigA. S. Neill

I can not do this myself, because I am blocked there. While I do not believe that making these harmless edits (even if on my behalf) will get anyone in trouble at Wikipedia, it's important to be aware of Wikipedia's policy against proxy editing (it only mentions "banned" editors, but I think it applies to blocked users as well). In any case, it clearly states that "proxy editing" is permissible if the editor is "able to show that the changes are either verifiable or productive and they have independent reasons for making such edits", which applies here.

(If no one is comfortable making these edits, no worries, of course.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

  • Yes check.svgY Done, cheers! BD2412 T 03:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Cool, thank you. ~ DanielTom (talk) 09:53, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

NECESSITY of Ethical Action[edit]

Dr Manhattan symbol.svg
Quaker star-T.svg
The Quakers have an excellent approach to thinking through difficult problems, where a number of intelligent and responsible people must work together. They meet as equals, and anyone who has an idea speaks up. There are no parliamentary procedures and no coercion from the Chair. They continue the discussion until unanimity is reached. I want you guys to do that. Get in a room … And sit there until you can deal with each other as individuals
~ Hyman G. Rickover ~
LuMaxArt Golden Family With World Religions.jpg
Atom of Atheism-Zanaq.svg
Black Sun.svg

Unlike Rickover, I have no expectations or demands of unanimity in regard to most things, but do hope to promote greater respect for both individual rights and genuine social responsibilities. Though not all would use such designations for their attitudes, MANY Quakers are ethical absurdists, who properly reject arrogant absolutist stances of anyone, and I assert that absurdist opposition to many forms obnoxiously arrogant absolutist obfuscations is at the core of MANY ethical actions throughout the ages. Despite some hopes of progress, I do not actually expect unanimity to be reached in regard to MANY things of vital significance, anytime soon, here or elsewhere, but I am hoping to as swiftly as possible develop a clearly ethical and effective response to what I genuinely believe are forms of unethical and despicable behavior currently occurring. Specifically, in this instance, I refer to what I regard as nothing less than smug arrogant acts of foul sociopathic vandalism by BD2412 (talk · contributions), in his persistent efforts to subjugate MOST of the pages and the works of ALL others on the project to his PERSONAL and UNPOPULAR stylistic preferences, DESPITE the reasonable, rational and passionate objections to his asinine and DICTATORIAL behavior by others, on this and several past occasions. This is an arrogant and massive campaign of DISRESPECT for what has been the MANIFEST preferences of MOST other EDITORS on this project for OVER 10 years, both MOST regular ones, and most occasional visitors. I believe that it is very clearly a neglect and betrayal of the founding principles of most wikis, of respecting genuine consensus of those involved in them, and of NOT implicitly or explicitly IMPOSING any unnecessary or unjust demands upon others.

I know some clarifications of my assertions are necessary and that some of my statements might seem overly harsh to some, and overly gentle to others. As an ethical absurdist I am sincerely NOT very inclined to apply to people such terms as cannot be applied with some validity to myself, even if in very incorrect or misleading ways overall. As a very disciplined ethical absurdist I usually adhere very rigorously to paths I consider ethical, and help others to do the same, to the extent I believe I properly can, but that means that I do NOT seek to make or even pretend to make ANY absolutely reliable RULES for others — as arrogant and asinine absolutists of various sorts are OFTEN inclined to do, in QUITE sociopathic ways. I can only provide what I believe to be appropriate INDICATIONS of good paths which they may or may not have the ABILITY to properly understand and respond to. I have no doubt that MANY of the most habitual absolutists and other sociopaths would probably try to convince others that absurdism itself is absolutely sociopathic — because deep in their often neglected heart of hearts they can sense that genuinely ethical absurdism undermines the forms of cynical, antisocial and unjust absolutism with which they are often quite comfortable, and upon which they have often become dependent.

I confess to often being saddened when ANYONE behaves in so ethically abhorrent a manner as some are inclined to occasionally or habitually do, without much genuine regard as to the proper rights and dignity of others and Humanity in general. I also sincerely confess that I am in some ways somewhat more amused than angered by the levels of smug arrogant stupidity being exhibited in recent days, and by a few occasions in the past, by someone usually far more prudently respectful. Yet I am very inclined to be NOT amused at the various forms of ENDURING damage that is being done to his own dignity by his asinine neglect and denial of the dignity and proper rights of ALL others on this project to actively reject and oppose such asinine arrogance as he is currently making plain — which is certainly not an uncommon thing among some trained in ways of legalistic arrogance, and making MUCH that is foul seem fair and fair seem foul. And apparently sometimes even coming to BELIEVE it ABSOLUTELY so, in ways that might correctly be designated sociopathic in the sense of exhibiting little or no concern or proper consideration of the adverse consequences for others of one's actions.

In a previous occurrence of this situation, last year, in November 2013 when not quite so much smug dictatorial arrogance was evident, as I believe the assaults on the pages then did not continue over more than one day, I stated in Recurring style dispute:

I have noticed that BD2412 (talk · contributions) once again is going on another massive rampage of stylistic impositions which I believe had last occurred to such a degree during one of the lulls in my own activity here, (back in May 2012). He had then declared these massive changes were to "enforce consistency in punctuation and spacing" which to my knowledge have NEVER been agreed to here. I was VERY busy with other matters in that period, and had not much time to do much here, but I had noticed it had occurred and objected to the "Sudden changing of Punctuation standards" on his talk page, as did Ninguable, who asserted "we have bigger problems than inconsistency in whether non-sentential bullet items use a full stop. (Personally, I don't use them. I was schooled not to, but I know there are other schools of thought.)" Our objections were then dismissed with a simple assertion that it bothered him to have them in such a style as we preferred, and that he could "shoot through a few hundred pages in a matter of hours and fix them all." And massive alterations continued so as to "fix" them in the style he prefers.
I do NOT believe that this is "fixing" them well so much as fixing them ill and AGAINST what for MANY years had been the preferred style evident here. As I believe I have probably asserted somewhere in the past, I believe that his notion of "consistent punctuation at the end of citation lines to clearly indicate to the reader that the line has ended" are no more necessary or appropriate to the interlinear info lines here than are periods at the end of title lines. Both habits of punctuation have been used, I believe primarily in the 19th century and earlier, in some publications, but I believe them archaic, needless, and personally find them aesthetically ugly, in most cases. I believe an attempt at developing a more extensive consensus should probably occur here over the next month or so, so that guidelines might perhaps be established by the end of this year, and invite others to comment on the matter and make any suggestions.

The situation is cleary MUCH worse at this point. At that time only I and one other clearly spoke out AGAINST the actions, one other initially favored BD2412's stance, but then struck out his vote after further consideration, and 2 people expressed indifference. That was NOT enough for a genuinely reliable polling of consensus, but just on the voting tabulation there ended up 2 people AGAINST his actions, ONLY himself for it, and 2 uncommitted or neutral.

I am NOT someone inclined to desiring needlessly punitive or damaging reprisals against those who have exhibited even very inconsiderate or malicious forms of stupidity, but neither am I inclined to submit to spiteful or simply callous attacks on what I believe are my own or others rights, without responding in such ways as I believe are appropriate and effective, regardless of how cowardly or gentle those who commit such assaults would like to believe I and others should be with them.

To summarize:

BD2412 in recent days has renewed EXTENSIVE efforts to make quite ethically IMPROPER and DICTATORIAL impositions on the fundamental styling of HUNDREDS of pages despite objections of various concerned editors now and in the past AGAINST such behavior and practices. He is clearly embracing and flaunting arrogantly DICTATORIAL modes of behavior. I have made it no secret to him that I believe this behavior is DISGRACEFUL and UNETHICAL abuse of editing and admin privileges and trust, and that were I still an admin here I believe his behavior would clearly warrant at least a temporary block. He is apparently smug with a sense of impunity that there is apparently not yet sufficient will to oppose such abusive neglect of trust, and proper expectations of him to be respectful of the rights and concerns of ALL editors on this project, and to NOT make unwarranted changes to fundamental styles which have been the NORM here since the beginning of this wiki. Now and in the past, his efforts to personally alter the preferences or options available to most has clearly and vigorously objected to by several people properly concerned with his unethical actions.

His current arrogant stance seems to be that he KNOWS what is BEST for all and ANY objections are by "little people" without power to immediately stop him, others who might as yet not exhibiting the will or confidence to do so, and I who certainly WOULD do so, currently possess only the ability to present reasonable arguments where he knows reasonable arguments can often be easily and effectively subverted by clever and skilled appeals to pervasive fears, prejudices and resentments of anyone who would honestly INDICATE the reality of these in sometimes discomforting ways.

As someone I once was able to consider a well-trusted admin here, quite unlike a mere anonymous vandal whose abuses, destruction and defacements can usually be removed rapidly, BD2412 is familiar enough with situations to KNOW that in a relatively short time it will require MUCH more work on the part of others to UNDO the work of his arrogance, than it took him to indulge in them.

As most people have MUCH better things to do than such obsessive acts, and he seems so insistent on DOING this editing DESPITE protests of me and others on EACH occasion which it has occurred, in ways I believe QUITE damaging to this wiki and ANY claims he might make of LEGITIMACY to his actions, I believe that IF consensus develops against these extensive and obsessive acts of what I truly believe to be ethically unjustified VANDALISM, it should be requested of him that he as swiftly as possible UNDO so much as can be done ASAP. IF he declines to do so, and insist that these defecations defacements remain in place, I would not demand punitive action, but would regard it as further disgracefulness on his part, and with what time I have take it upon myself to undo as much of these as possible in coming months.

I do NOT know how effective my appeals will be at this point, but I am morally impelled to present them, and appeal to others to speak out against this current abuse of privileges and position, as swiftly and strongly as possible, so as to put a just end to what I clearly regard as abuses of privileges, and a disregard of the rights and implicit will of MOST editors on this wiki. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 15:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Banner of Peace from the Roerich Pact.svg Blue Pacific.svg Banner of Peace from the Roerich Pact.svg
Even a purely moral act that has no hope of any immediate and visible political effect can gradually and indirectly, over time, gain in political significance.
~ Václav Havel ~
Bratislava Slovakia 213.JPG
I am now once again, in hopes of putting a STOP to this ABUSE, directly appealing to others to speak out against this, so that further evidence of the OBVIOUS consensus of MOST editors here over MANY years be properly respected, and the arrogant impositions of BD2412 (talk · contributions) can be formally REJECTED and REPUDIATED.
~ Kalki ~

AGAINST IMPOSING periods at the end of interlinear citation lines[edit]

  1. Kalki·· 15:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC) — I am adamantly AGAINST this, for reasons indicated in the above statements: I do NOT have and NEVER have had any objection to the proper and standard use of periods at the end of grammatically composed sentences, I simply have very strong objection to their use to NEEDLESSLY terminate simple information lines, which is just as UGLY and UNUSUAL in MOST compendiums of quotations as a similar 18th and 19th century style which was never universal and eventually abandoned nearly everywhere, of ending nearly all book titles, chapter titles, section titles and poem titles with periods. I am certainly against their IMPOSITION — it simply has NEVER been the preferred style of most editors here in over 10 years of activity and has become the obsessively IMPOSED style of ONLY one: BD2412.
  2. While I am not so offended by the imposition of the periods as some, I do not believe they are necessary for most citations (unless, as discussed, a particular citation is actually a sentence) - and I have never (and do not intend to do so in the future) used them in citations I have provided as I consider their use to be awkward at best. To my mind, having inconsistent usage of periods for citations on a page is really a non-issue. And I believe there are far worse (and more numerous) real issues here to which I would much rather direct attention than this. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  3. Unlike Kalki, I do not consider this sort of punctuation aesthetically displeasing, and I do believe there should be consistent punctuation within each page; however, I think the style and punctuation of citations should be up to the page creator (or greatest contributor) of each page to decide. (This cuts both ways: BD2412 should obviously be free to punctuate citations in the pages he creates, and edits such as this by Kalki should be reverted on sight.) What I take issue with is the inconsiderate way in which BD2412 is trying to impose this particular form of outdated (and arguably improper) punctuation on all pages, completely ignoring (nay, going against) the wishes and sincere objections of other editors – and if there were to be a project-wide consistency imposed (which is not a priority at this point), I will say citations should clearly not be punctuated, for the reasons I gave here. (As to BD2412's defense below, that he is punctuating citations for the sake of "efficiency", I ask: aren't the quotes he is adding from dictionaries of quotations to already-existing pages fewer in number than the quotes that are already on the page? If so, it would seem that adding dots to all the already-existing citations actually takes more time than removing them from the newly-added ones would. Just a thought.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 18:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    Punctuation can be added by a semi-automated process that just finds unpunctuated citation lines and punctuates them. Removing punctuation can not be done that way, since some lines still require punctuation because they are notes containing complete sentences. Also, there are many cases where the number of quotes that I have added to a page has doubled the page size, or more. There are also many cases where some citations on the page were already punctuated. BD2412 T 18:59, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
From 2003 until NOW, most of the pages have NOT had such end-points on the information lines, and from 2003 until 2012 I generally and regularly (and I believe without ANY dispute) removed such end-points where they occurred as NOT being a part of the recommended or preferred styles here. Then suddenly in May of 2012, BD2412, without any discussion or inquiry about drastically changing the manifestly preferred styles of citations here since 2003 (and I believe in most other quote compendiums for over a century), began what I believe was his first episode of MASSIVE alteration of pages. I believe this occurred some time after I had announced I would be gone for most of a few days, with little opportunity to check in, and when I did have a chance I was APPALLED at the massive addition of these unneeded marks to MANY pages. I objected on 20 May 2012:
I have noticed you going through articles and changing what had been the most prevalent punctuation standard on most pages, and one common to many quote compendiums where descriptive lines of information on a quote are not treated as full sentences, to one that conforms to a rather archaic presumption that a descriptive line (such as a title, or those used in such lines) must be treated AS IF it were a sentence. I do not believe that imposing such presumptive standards are necessary or proper, and aesthetically I have always preferred the unpunctuated info lines, with punctuation used only occasionally for any full sentences within them. I probably don't have time to discuss things at present, but do not approve of the massive changes.
As has occurred in EVERY episode since, my objections were simply dismissed and disregarded, and when Ningauble also expressed reservations about his actions, and that they were not to his preferences either, there were brief exchanges, but BD2412 dismissed any objections as trivial, and went on altering things to suit himself rather than respecting what until then had simply been the nearly universally accepted style on all pages.
I believe that the archaic style should be TOLERATED, as are MANY other NON-STANDARD styles, and MUCH simple SLOPPINESS of various types, but it should NOT be preserved or maintained, let alone PROMOTED or IMPOSED as BD2412 has obsessively been doing at times. I do not see the desirability of promoting a page uniformity standerd as determining this, and I believe the original NON-PUNCTUATED format for info lines with start to be the APPROVED standard, and switching to it should certainly NOT be "reverted on sight". The massive campaign to alter things without EXPRESS consensus, and I belief AGAINST the manifest consensus of over a decade should be repudiated. Once again I have to be leaving very soon, but might have more time later. Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 19:19, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

FOR IMPOSING periods at the end of interlinear citation lines[edit]

  1. One of my main activities here has been to import public domain collections of quotations, including those of Harbottle; Hoyt's, the Dictionary of Legal Quotations, and Respectfully Quoted. As you can see, all of these have periods at the end of their citations. When I import them and either create new pages with them or merge them into existing entries, they come complete with those periods. It would be an enormous waste of my time to pick through and remove those periods (this can't be automated since some portion of the citations also contain further notes that are complete sentences), so in order to keep things consistent, I merely punctuate all citations (a process which can be automated). We've had this discussion before, and there was no community consensus one way or the other, so I consider myself free to do this in the distant hope of maintaining some semblance of professional consistency across our pages. BD2412 T 16:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
You are certainly free to add quotes from these books in such a style as was preferred by some in the 18th and 19th century, and you seem to find convenient, but you should NOT presume to make this the de facto style on this 21st century wiki, as you have clearly been attempting to do even on pages primarily worked upon by others who reject the style, and me specifically who OBJECTS to it. For the benefit of others I will point out once again a few of the points I made at your talk page at Gnat Turds are NOT necessary in this wiki, nor are similar small needless dots over all the pages:
RATIONAL CONSISTENCY rather than MECHANISTIC ROBOTIC CONSISTENCY is what should be favored. I do occasionally end info lines with a period — because they are arguably or certainly sentences or paragraphs with sentences, rather than mere info lines. I checked a few of the pages in your recent rampage, like Now, which I created as an article on 1 June 2014‎, and was the SOLE editor on since then, UNTIL your edit. There were only TWO lines which ended with a period, because they were arguably or certainly, interpretable as sentences. IF I were a totally COWARDLY ass-kissing MORON, which you seem to believe people should BE in regard to your claims, of a NEED for ROBOTIC consistency and OBEDIENCE to YOU, I might actually thank you for the ARROGANT ASININE PRESUMPTUOUS MENDACITY by which you seek to claim ANY RATIONAL legitimacy for your actions on MOST of these pages. I honestly cannot even pretend to do that. Your primary goal in the recent bout of assault upon the formatting MOST others seem to PREFER, seems to have been to INFEST as many pages as possible with your particular form of UGLY and NEEDLESS formatting. Even an initial supporter of your actions the last time this occurred conceded they were ugly. Indeed I will agree with you that "the biggest issue I see is a plague of pages that are just terribly formatted all over" —and I often try to gradually correct this with formatting that had been agreed to from the beginning of this wiki —  and that you CHOOSE to INCREASE that plague of poor formatting with your own massive INFUSION of a what has NOT been agreed to, and which I consider a VILE, UGLY preference of YOU, and basically you ALONE, of all the most regular editors here, in what I consider a vile, ARROGANT, and foully PRESUMPTUOUS way, is something I consider a despicable act. Otherwise you seem, for the most part, a fairly decent person, but in this regard, I genuinely consider your actions quite despicable, and in some ways more so than those of a merely anonymous vandal, whose damages are usually relatively easy to revert. In this case you know that few are likely to oppose you sufficiently to immediately revert the damages to the page formats, and it will get MORE difficult as time goes by, and thus are likely to persist for months or years EVEN if enough people become sufficiently aware of the arrogant asininity of your acts to oppose them.
You then smugly replied: "these formats will not persist for "months or years"; they will persist forever. Cheers!" Your petty minded arrogance in such responses to any objections to your asinine insistence that others defer to your will is something I find repugnant. I do not doubt that like most human beings you have mostly good will in your intentions, but in this case of actual practices I perceive MANY deficiencies and flaws in BOTH your perceptions and attitudes. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 16:29, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Regarding your assertion that these represent "a style as was preferred by some in the 18th and 19th century", Respectfully Quoted was published in 1989. It is in the public domain because it is compiled and published by the United States Library of Congress. There is also a 2010 edition that I haven't gotten to yet, which also fully punctuates its citations. This is a practice firmly embedded in the 21st Century, by one of the most respectable authorities that can be found. My "arrogance" in my talk page response was a reflection of your hyperbolic reaction to the addition of periods - which you called "gnat turds", in boldfaced letters, to the pages. BD2412 T 18:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
As an absurdist, I certainly have no doubts that even more exceptions can be found, but in general, such styling is NOT used in most works, and I believe has not been prevalent for over a century. ~ Kalki·· 19:21, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Neutral about IMPOSING periods at the end of interlinear citation lines[edit]

  • COMMENT : Even if you have little or no preferences as to whether these UNNECESSARY points are actually used by anyone, I am appealing to you to actively reject the IMPOSITION of them, as the SINGLE person who has consistently desired to do this in over 10 years of this wiki's existence has clearly exhibited what I believe to be a sociopathic obsession with doing so, quite akin to the actions of obsessive vandals. ~ Kalki·· 15:33, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    That would be true if vandals obsessively fixed things and made them more consistent. BD2412 T 16:11, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    Buckminster Fuller's remarks in Synergetics: Explorations in the Geometry of Thinking (1975) come to mind: "It is essential to release humanity from the false fixations of yesterday…" — as well as those of a friend of his great-aunt Margaret, Ralph Waldo Emerson: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds…" So it goes… ~ Kalki·· 16:55, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
    Yes, well, there you go. BD2412 T 17:15, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

An alternative proposal to template all quotes[edit]

None of this would be a problem if all of our quotes were templated, with individual users being able to set preferences to see or not see punctuation marks at the end of citations. In addition, such a system would allow us to classify individual quotes by their template parameters. For an example of what this would entail, see this Wikisource page of quotes from Hoyt's. Cheers! BD2412 T 16:14, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

None of THIS would be so much of a problem if you had not gone about so many times obsessively changing the styling of citations from that commonly preferred by MOST editors here to an archaic one you seem to prefer. I do not know how easy it would be to implement any viable templates, that are properly formatted for interlinear rather than endnote use, but switching over to them would be a MASSIVE undertaking, and I believe that there certainly would have to be EXTENSIVE involvement by MANY here over weeks or months in deciding upon the options of formatting such a template. ~ Kalki·· 16:38, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
As I have explained before, it is not a matter of preference, but of efficiency. I am importing and distributing tens of thousands of quotes from other sources. These quotes happen to come with punctuation at the end of even short citations. I suppose it is a matter of preference to say that a given page should not have a mix of punctuated short citations and unpunctuated short citations, but I'm punctuating them. Period. Full stop.
With respect to templates, that is probably the best way to organize our quotes, and something that we should have done from the beginning. Yes, it would be a massive undertaking, but it would enhance the usability of this project many times over, since we would eventually be able to build a system to assemble pages of quotes by author, subject, work, rather than assembling everything ourselves. BD2412 T 16:46, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

The continuing campaign of DICTATORIAL VANDALISM should be CENSURED and STOPPED.[edit]

The extent of BD2412's arrogantly DICTATORIAL presumptuousness is CONTINUING to become even more apparent, as even after I once again initiated the above polling of those concerned enough to indicate their opinions, where at this point there are 4 people who have promptly responded to those appeals to express views on this matter, and he ALONE among those, favors such IMPOSITION of "consistency" as he desires, and 3 others, myself included, have indicated that such formatting should NOT be IMPOSED as a standard here.

Though I am NOT calling for punitive measures, for past actions, I believe BD2412's behavior on each episode which has occurred where his actions were contested should be censured and condemned as inappropriate and detrimental to the wiki, and an active defiance and disregard for the MANIFEST consensus of MOST editors, as evidenced by the predominance of the style he apparently disdains and seeks to eliminate in a one-person campaign against the work of those "infidels" who lack faith in the supremacy of his "good judgement" of what is best for all others to accept, despite other styles being the OBVIOUSLY preferred forms of MOST editors since the existence of this wiki. I do believe that IF this continues, a temporary block on his editing IS appropriate, as a precautionary measure against further burdening of other editors who might wish to revert his arrogant IMPOSITIONS, as currently he persists in disregarding all appeals to stop his nearly universally UNDESIRED and certainly UNWARRANTED changes to pages.

Presently, as well as in such past incidents which I have opposed, I have been responding to what I sincerely believe are UNDESIRABLE actions and aims, and wish to make a few things I believe have probably become appropriate or even necessary to redress some of the damages which I believe have occurred more clear.

Prior to the episode in 2012 which began these rather needless, and I believe in many ways detrimental, dramas of MASSIVE and UNAPPROVED alterations to others works, in what had been CLEARLY APPROVED formatting, in doing simple cleanup work of integrating the quotes BD2412 had added from 19th century works onto pages, and cleaning up the page formatting, I often and regularly removed these needless end-points, as undesirable artifacts of ARCHAIC formatting of MOSTLY 19th century and early styles, with I believe, NO DISPUTE on such matters.

I do wish to make it clear — as with MANY other "unapproved" and "unfavored" format styles, I do NOT wish to ABSOLUTELY EXCLUDE such formatting AS IF it was "forbidden", and BD2412 should REMAIN free to add material from such books as ARE formatted in such ways without BOTHERING to adapt them to the formats which WERE approved and recommended, IF he continues to prefer to do so, but it should be made CLEAR that SUCH formatting has NEVER been preferred or favored by MOST who edit here, and that further altering lines which ARE properly formatted in ways which HAVE been approved and recommended since 2003, should be REJECTED, and I or anyone else who has always believed, or comes to believe that the EXISTING recommendations of NOT having such ARE preferable, SHOULD be free to edit out these UNNECESSARY ending points to lines, ESPECIALLY where they were added to pages and sections by these TROUBLESOME and UNDESIRED episodes of MASSIVE alteration of pages by BD2412. I believe that SUCH decisions, WITHOUT any calls for penalties for his past or present behavior would be a fair and proper outcome, far more generous than such harsh sanctions as SOME often seek towards actions nowhere near as damaging as I believe his have been. I do sincerely believe he has persistently and increasingly acted with DISGRACEFUL and DETRIMENTAL behavior, activities and aims, and HOPE that this SOON ceases, in proper acceptance of PREVIOUS and LONG existing STANDARDS here, but I do patiently await and request indications of the opinions and thoughts of others on the matter, in such ways as BD2412 has REPEATEDLY indicated his UNWILLINGNESS to do, in persisting to such editing as has been CLEARLY objected to, to varying degrees, by MOST who have thus far gotten involved in this matter. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 15:08, 13 September 2014 (UTC) + tweaks

I like you Kalki, I really do, but has it occurred to you that if you tried communicating like a more or less normal person, you might get somewhere with what you are trying to do? BD2412 T 16:13, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
That is quite a humorous remark, in very ironic ways, as it is clearly YOU who are certainly the individual in the minority on THIS issue, and apparently trying to change the subject of YOUR obstinate and unwarranted DICTATORIAL actions to some of my peculiarities of expression. I confess I have rarely made extreme efforts to seem merely "normal" in ways that I am not, especially if such required embracing cowardly dishonesties, and neither am I extremely inclined to be either prideful or ashamed of the ways I am unusual, because I am VERY respectful of OTHERS and their rights to diverge and differ from me, in MANY ways, but NOT of ANYONE'S presumptions of their "right" or "duty" to IMPOSE CONFORMITY to any of their preferences on others without appropriate and just warrant or clearly vital need. ~ Kalki·· 16:23, 13 September 2014 (UTC) + tweaks
I mean that your distaste for final punctuation seems as quixotic as your other expressions. In any case, your poll above appears to be asking whether Wikiquote should have a policy of requiring punctuation, not whether the addition of punctuation should be prohibited. The absence of a rule requiring imposition is not the same as a rule prohibiting imposition. Ask whether the addition of punctuation should be prohibited. BD2412 T 17:09, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
This is not a case of vandalism, which is an act intended to deface or damage. Nor is it, as some of the rhetoric above would seem to suggest, a case of crimes against humanity under any reasonable definition. The form, structure, tone, and content of this entire discussion only serves to prevent or inhibit reasonable consideration of the small point that is putatively under consideration.~ Ningauble (talk) 17:22, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Alternatives to Wikiquote:Templates/People[edit]

Could we discuss better ways to organize quotations than the current Wikiquote:Templates/People? When I was preparing Joseph Ritson, it seemed more useful to separate his quotes about people from his quotes on other topics. I alphabetized the names for easy reference, although this method does not conform to the current rigid standard. I suggest an alternative method to the current standard, useful in some cases, that would allow a choice where quotes can be organized under headings that focus on context or areas of expertise. In the case of Ritson, anyone needing to know what he said about his contemporaries (plus Lydgate) can easily find the quote. This seemed like a much better method than dumping a chronological jumble of words under the general heading, Quotes. HenricusHirschdörfer (talk) 20:05, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Before addressing the general question of alternatives to Wikiquote:Templates/People, I would note that arguments for the case of Joseph Ritson (current revision) do not strike me as very convincing. The importance of focus on context or areas of expertise may be contradicted by the article introduction saying he is "noted more for his caustic style than for his scholarship", which suggests to me that the subject of his remarks is less important than their manner. I would also note that chronological or textual order is not a jumble, it is linear; and it represents an objective ordering based on origins rather than a subjective assessment of what subjects are pertinent.

In other instances, I note that HenricusHirschdörfer also recently created an article on Joseph Strutt (current revision) that rearranges several quotations from a single work under various subject headings. He is not alone in this: an IP contributor recently resisted the removal of this sort of structure from the Hugh Macmillan, Baron Macmillan article (diff), even after being advised ([5]) that it is generally deprecated. Several editors have introduced subject headings over the years, and they have generally been removed in favor of our more conventional arrangement by chronology and textual order.

More broadly, the introduction of subject headings has often raised serious problems. They have frequently given the impression of expressing a non-neutral point of view about the person quoted, of making a polemical argument about the putative subject of the quotes and, in attempting to interpret quotations, of even misrepresenting the author's intent. These and other problems of interpretation and emphasis (such as attempting to place "more important" quotes at the top) are handily obviated by using a consistent and objective system of chronological and textual order that requires no analysis and invites no opinions. I heartily endorse the system that has been adopted.

That said, some alternatives to Wikiquote:Templates/People may be useful insofar as the template itself has shortcomings as a means of promulgating the convention it expresses. To wit:

The inherent form of such templates, intended for use with the InputBox tool (e.g. at Help:Starting a new page#Using input box), has little provision for covering many optional features and variations that are also commonly accepted practice. By its nature, it has to stick to the basics. Furthermore, and very importantly in my opinion, it affords little opportunity to explain the sense, purpose, or rationale behind the format it exemplifies, as can be better explained in a prose "guideline" page.

From the project's earliest days, the advantages of the template approach were recognized: It affords an easy and direct way for newcomers to just jump in and create an article by fleshing out a bare-bones outline. However, it is of little help when a user wants to try something different. Furthermore, when an article has already been created and tagged with a {{people-cleanup}} template, this may be precisely when some prose explanation is called for, but it only points to the InputBox template.

As an alternative or supplement to templates like Wikiquote:Templates/People, particularly in the context of a cleanup tag, something like Wikiquote:Guide to layout could be very useful. However, as it stands now it is a rough draft that needs a lot of improvement. Any thoughts on how much work it would take to make it suitable for linking from the cleanup templates and/or from the "editintro" feature of the InputBox tool? ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:55, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

These are excellent points, and improvement is the issue as Wikiquote evolves to meet the needs of its users. Rigid adherence to chronological and textual order is puzzling, when you think about it. What did Joseph Strutt have to say about gun safety back in the day? HenricusHirschdörfer (talk) 18:33, 1 October 2014 (UTC)



You have some good Acton quotes, but you don't have him in your index of 'Historians'.


Hello. If you mean Lord Acton, then I believe he already is in our "index" of historians: here, under "D", John Dalberg-Acton, 1st Baron Acton. ~ DanielTom (talk) 07:21, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

Meta RfCs on two new global groups[edit]

Hello all,

There are currently requests for comment open on meta to create two new global groups. The first is a group for members of the OTRS permissions queue, which would not contain any additional user rights. That proposal can be found at m:Requests for comment/Creation of a global OTRS-permissions user group. The second is a group for Wikimedia Commons admins and OTRS agents to view deleted file pages through the 'viewdeletedfile' right on all wikis except those who opt-out. The second proposal can be found at m:Requests for comment/Global file deletion review.

We would like to hear what you think on both proposals. Both are in English; if you wanted to translate them into your native language that would also be appreciated.

It is possible for individual projects to opt-out, so that users in those groups do not have any additional rights on those projects. To do this please start a local discussion, and if there is consensus you can request to opt-out of either or both at m:Stewards' noticeboard.

Thanks and regards, Ajraddatz (talk) 18:04, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Quotes "by" Jesus or "Attributed to" Jesus"?[edit]

I don't mean to open a can of worms here, but there are a substantial number of quotes on various pages for which Jesus is identified as the sole author. Generally, where a quote by one subject is in a work by another, we report the quote with a citation like: "John Smith, in Bob Jones, Biography of John Smith, date, page". We do not treat the subject as the author of the biography itself. The problem here is that the portions of the Bible that purport to quote Jesus are identified as ostensibly having been written by Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and generally agreed by experts to have been written by later followers of these subjects who recorded an oral tradition. In this case, there are some additional problems: first, some people dispute the existence of Jesus (and therefore the authorship of any quotes attributed to Jesus); second, there are no contemporaneous records of the quotes; third, there are different version of the some of the same quotes given by different authors; and fourth, there are different versions of the same quotes in different versions of the Bible. I therefore propose that we should generally cite such quotes as "Attributed to Jesus in [book], [version]". BD2412 T 03:38, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

@BD2412: That seems reasonable enough. There are also other sources for such quotations (such as the Gospel of Thomas or non-Gospel New Testament sources). For what it's worth, the non-historical theory has such little support as to be ignorable. —Justin (koavf)TCM 05:03, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
First let me state that I emphatically agree with BD2412's last point: Bible citations should always identify the Bible version. Always.

On the larger issue, that Jesus is not the author of the cited works, I don't have a problem with current practice. I am usually a stickler for being very clear about whether a work is by the person quoted or is quoting or attributing his words, but in the case of Bible citations I do not think clarification is needed. (E.g., the work known as The Gospel According to Matthew is clearly "according to" someone other than Jesus himself.) In particular, we really do not need to express or imply an opinion on whether the Bible contains the Gospel Truth or direct quotations from eyewitnesses or traditional attributions compiled later – for the purpose of citing the Bible it just does not matter.

In the special case of the Bible, as with very few similar works, it is such an iconic source, a thing known and recognized the world over (whether one regards it as a cultural artifact or as the Word of God), that there is no need to clarify the nature of its contents: whether it is a primary, secondary, or tertiary source is immaterial when it is the foundational source for one of the world's major religions. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:14, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that we should assume that there is no need to clarify issues like this. There are still large parts of the world where Christianity is little-practiced, and people might assume that Jesus sat down with a pen and paper and wrote the things attributed to him in the Bible. Moreover, there are quotes "by" Jesus in the Gnostic Gospels, the Book of Mormon, and other works of that genre. Since we are not in a place to say whether any of these is "the" true account, we might be best off treating all of them as attributions. BD2412 T 19:16, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
@BD2412: Your concerns apply much more to other Ancient World figures than they do to Jesus. For example, we only have two sources for Socrates (his two admirers, Plato and Xenophon, who give very different portraits of him). Alexander the Great's earliest biographies were written 400 years after his death, yet they are regarded by historians as reliable accounts. When it comes to Jesus, even if we ignore Paul's letters, we know that Mark was written in the 50s, and the stories he narrates were around just ten years after the death of Jesus. Have some perspective. ~ DanielTom (talk) 18:05, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
I don't doubt that there are many ancient World figures to whom such concerns might apply. I come down on not taking a position for or against the assertion that the attribution is correct. That is to say, I think that where it is impossible to say with certainty that a particular quote was actually authored by a particular author, we should say who wrote the attribution (and perhaps call it an attribution. Jesus is just patient zero for this issue. It is certainly not incorrect to cite a given quote as "Attributed to Jesus in The Gospel According to Matthew" or the like. BD2412 T 18:38, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Kim Jong-un[edit]

Swedish wikiquote has a page about the korean leader: [6]. When will the English one? Hedman (talk) 15:59, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

@Hedman: Anytime! As soon as you want to, you can add a page and a few quotations. —Justin (koavf)TCM 16:09, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

Global AbuseFilter[edit]


AbuseFilter is a MediaWiki extension used to detect likely abusive behavior patterns, like pattern vandalism and spam. In 2013, Global AbuseFilters were enabled on a limited set of wikis including Meta-Wiki,, Wikispecies and (in early 2014) all the "small wikis". Recently, global abuse filters were enabled on "medium sized wikis" as well. These filters are currently managed by stewards on Meta-Wiki and have shown to be very effective in preventing mass spam attacks across Wikimedia projects. However, there is currently no policy on how the global AbuseFilters will be managed although there are proposals. There is an ongoing request for comment on policy governing the use of the global AbuseFilters. In the meantime, specific wikis can opt out of using the global AbuseFilter. These wikis can simply add a request to this list on Meta-Wiki. More details can be found on this page at Meta-Wiki. If you have any questions, feel free to ask on m:Talk:Global AbuseFilter.


PiRSquared17, Glaisher

— 17:34, 14 November 2014 (UTC)


While I certainly welcome the addition of new pages, especially on topics that had not previously received much coverage, I wonder if all the 95 pages in this category meet the criteria for having a page here. Many seem to be quite dry pieces of text from a Chemistry textbook and do not, in my mind, rise to the level of quotability sufficient for our needs here. Some do have some memorable quotes, but most appear to be quite narrow in scope and do not provide anything memorable. Does anyone have an opinion - either agree or disagree? ~ UDScott (talk) 14:42, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

  • I agree with your concerns. We should not have as "quotes" textbook snippets that merely recite scientific definitions and characteristics of chemical compounds. Such materials appear more relevant to an encyclopedia than to a collection of quotations. I tend to think of quotations as things that a writer or speaker might want to pull out and plug into a conversation, speech, or article to inject some interest, and therefore to get away from mundane descriptions. With respect to many of these newly created pages with only one or two quotes, I would at the least want to merge them as subsections of a single page on, perhaps, "Chemical compounds", but some (like Diisobutylaluminium hydride and Heterocyclic compound ) seem unquotable to me, and should probably be deleted outright. BD2412 T 18:53, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I also don't anticipate a great deal of interest in most of those pages anytime soon, and see most of the quotes as low-interest statements for most, but do see some subjects worthy of expansion in some of them, and see no great harm in letting those with interest in them extend them as they will.
      It is not extremely likely that very many people are going to seek out the page for Polycyclic compounds for quotes on it, or be highly offended that there is one, or that there is thus far only one rather mundane quote on the rather specialized subject. In the case of Electrostatic potential maps which was prodded, I see no great reason to seek out further quotes just now, to attempt to save it from deletion, but would not impede others from attempting to do so, if that were their inclination. I have a very slight preference to keep it, for a few potential remarks related to the subject, but like many pages that get prodded, no real passion to do much any time soon on its behalf. I will do a slight bit on behalf of the others though, which have not yet put to the prod, that they might be left as they are, to grow or stagnate as others are inclined to either build upon them or ignore them. ~ Kalki·· 19:03, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
      • How would you feel about merging all those describing specific chemical compounds into a single page on that subject? BD2412 T 20:07, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
        • I personally would not oppose such a merger for many of them under relevant headings, but believe the created pages should remain as redirects, with potentials for latter expansion. The creator of many of these pages should probably be consulted for any opinions on such matters. ~ Kalki·· 20:11, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
          • That plan (coupled with Kalki's idea to leave the pages as redirects) seems fine to me. And talking to the pages' creator is probably a good idea too. I've been tweaking the pages as they have been created (adding cats, formatting, etc.) and was reluctant to delete them all - but also felt that many of the pages did not contain much that was quotable. To me, this appears to be a good solution. ~ UDScott (talk) 20:16, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
  • I thought that quoting about chemical materials is all right because there are precedents. In Gaither's Dictionary of Scientific Quotations, there are quotes about themes such as "acid" -- "acetic", "amino", "carbolic", "formic", "hydrochloric", "muriatic", "sulphuric", and "uric". However, I am somewhat newbie in Wikiquote. If you think there are better suggestion, I will follow that suggestion. (I am not a native English speaker. Excuse me for my bad English.) by Y-S.Ko
    • Yes, but looking over the examples visible in Gaithers, they are still poignant or pithy, not dry and technical. BD2412 T 23:13, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
      • Hmmm... How about Euler's identity? I don't know education system of United States. However, Understanding "e^{i \pi} + 1 = 0. \,\!" needs some technical understanding for complex analysis. However, there are quotes about this technical theme.Y-S.Ko (talk) 23:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
      • How about Schrödinger equation in Erwin Schrödinger page? I think understanding it needs some technical concept of differential equation.Y-S.Ko (talk) 23:36, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
      • I don't think that my quotes are technical than other quotes in mathematics or analytic philosophy. For example, quotes "To every ω-consistent recursive class κ of formulae there correspond recursive class signs r, such that neither v Gen r nor Neg (v Gen r) belongs to Flg (κ) (where v is the free variable of r)." (in Kurt Gödel) is technical. Y-S.Ko (talk) 00:02, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
        • I think perhaps Wikiquote:Quotability captures the issue in a nutshell. Schrödinger's equation may be very technical, but it's also by itself a very famous quote in its circle. Schrödinger and Kurt Gödel are highly famous in their fields. You can tell this because the quotes (to the extent that they can be called quotes) are often quoted by others. As for Euler's identity, most of the quotes on that page have some bite to them beyond merely reciting facts about the formula. BD2412 T 00:04, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
          • Hmmm... then how about substituting quotes with similar quotes of Linus Pauling, Robert Burns Woodward or E. J. Corey, Nobel laureates, very famous in their field? (I quoted John E. McMurry or Kurt Peter C. Vollhardt (de), not as famous as Schrödinger or Gödel, but somewhat notable, according to Wikipedia...) If "merely reciting facts" is problem, how about Mercury_(element)#Mercury.2C_ultra_trace_analysis? These quotes are stating scientific facts. If notability is a problem, I think my quotes are made by more notable scientist (according to Wikipedia's criterion) than Paul Gouda (who is quoted in Mercury article). If technical scientific knowledge is a problem, quotes on mathematics are also problems. Therefore, I thought my quotation is all right because there are precedents like these....
            Well... now, I don't know so much about Wikiquote. Therefore, I can have some misunderstanding. Y-S.Ko (talk) 01:33, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
            • By the way, your contributions are very much appreciated, and some of them are spot on - the Hofmann quotes on Benzene for example. Imagine that every quote has point system, where it gets a certain number of points based on the fame of the quote itself, a certain number of points based on the fame of the person being quoted, and a certain number of points based on how useful it would be to whip that quote out in a speech or while making conversation at a cocktail party. The ideal is to have quotes that meet all three of these - famous quotes by famous people that are captivating or entertaining. BD2412 T 02:12, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

VisualEditor coming to this wiki as a Beta Feature[edit]

VE as BetaFeature.png

Hello. Please excuse the English. I would be grateful if you translated this message!

VisualEditor, a rich-text editor for MediaWiki, will soon be available on this wiki as a Beta Feature. The estimated date of activation is Wednesday, 26 November.

To access it, you will need to visit the Beta features page after the deployment and tick the box next to "VisualEditor". (If you have enabled the "Automatically enable all new beta features" option, VisualEditor will be automatically available for you.) There will also be a "VisualEditor language tool" that you can enable if you need it.

Then, you just have to click on "Edit" to start VisualEditor, or on "Edit source" to edit using wikitext markup. You can even begin to edit pages with VisualEditor and then switch to the wikitext editor simply by clicking on its tab at any point, and you can keep your changes when doing so.

A guide was just published at so that you can learn how to support your community with this transition: please read and translate it if you can! You will find all the information about the next steps there. Please report any suggestions or issues at the main feedback page. You will also receive the next issues of the multilingual monthly newsletter here on this page: if you want it delivered elsewhere, for example at your personal talk page, please add the relevant page here.

Thanks for your attention and happy editing, Elitre (WMF) 18:12, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

VisualEditor coming to this wiki as a Beta Feature (errata)

Insofar as the Editing team of the Features department of Wikimedia Engineering intends to "make VisualEditor be the main, default editor for WMF wikis", I think it is important for Wikiquote regulars to engage with testing this new interface. Development of the Visual Editor to date has been primarily informed by and targeted for encyclopedic projects and, as far as I know, this is the first time it has been tried at a compendium of quotations – which may have significantly different needs that should be made known before the new interface becomes standard.

My first test drive at User:Ningauble/Sandbox/VE test (reproducing parts of the Bureaucracy article) was a little bumpy:  I can't figure out how to make cross-wiki links (the very first word in most articles is a wikilink to Wikipedia);  copy/paste from an existing article (reading view, not edit page) introduced spurious line breaks;  copy/paste from my word processor introduced all sorts of inappropriate metadata (I did not save this bit in my sandbox);  and very significantly because citing sources is a big deal for Wikiquote, the prominently displayed "Cite" button creates footnotes, which are deprecated here.  On a brighter note, copy/paste from an existing article (reading view, not edit page) did capture and preserve bold and italic formatting.

That is all I have time for testing today (and I will very busy in real-life for the next couple months). I encourage others to test the Visual Editor and share their experiences of what is probably destined, sooner or later, to become our default editing environment.

(I notice that the above linked "main feedback page" uses the totally deprecated and unsupported "Liquid Threads" talk page interface. It seems really odd to me that feedback about the new easier to use interface is being hosted on what is widely considered an unusable interface, but this roadblock may not be totally impassable.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:00, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Bare URLs[edit]

I am coming across a lot of pages containing either bare URLs, or linked URLs with no explanatory text. Can someone with the requisite wiki-fu generate a list of pages containing these? I would like to fix them all by providing the relevant description of the page to which the URL leads. Cheers! BD2412 T 17:47, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

@BD2412: The only trick I would know of would involve w:WP:AWB and that wouldn't be terribly effective but it's a start... —Justin (koavf)TCM 19:22, 28 November 2014 (UTC)
If AWB can be used for this, I don't know how. I suppose one could search all pages for those with "http" not preceded by a bracket, but a list can't be compiled that way. BD2412 T 03:16, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
@BD2412: You can create a tracking category. There is a similar situation at en.wp with w:en:Template:Barelinks. And there is a Reflink tool over there which fills in information semi-automatically. Still not perfect but it's the first thing that comes to mind. I know that at en.voy they also had a bot that went around turning external links into more usable form... —Justin (koavf)TCM 07:17, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I have long felt that external links without explicit citation text are a major blight affecting many of our articles. I had thought about creating a local cleanup template as Justin suggests, and may go ahead an do so in the near future if nobody beats me to it. Unfortunately, I don't have any bright ideas for automatically detecting pages that need to be tagged and cleaned up. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:24, 29 November 2014 (UTC)
I have asked for help at the Wikipedia village pump technical section. BD2412 T 17:50, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Copyright question[edit]

Hi. Upon reading Wikiquote:Copyrights and its Russian version I realized that the Russian version is different, — it says that no copyrighted content (not even fair use) is allowed, and all quotations on the site are GFDL (where not, permission from original quote author must be sought). However in the English version a fair part of it is dedicated to the "it's only for educational purposes, it's a small quote, therefore it's fair use here".

Are such fair use quotations tagged or can they appear anywhere in a Wikiquote article? Gryllida (talk) 01:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I interpret it as that if I'm writing a for-profit document (i.e. a book for sale), I can't reuse such fair use quotations. Is that correct? [This is something I interpret at odds with that Wikimedia projects should be liberating, - by providing truly GFDL content.] Gryllida (talk) 01:56, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

@Gryllida: Unfortunately, each language edition of each Wikimedia Foundation project chooses their own standard when it comes to fair use. All projects must themselves be Creative Commons-licensed but some go even further and disallow any fair use material. Compare w:Adore (The Smashing Pumpkins album) with w:es:Adore (álbum de The Smashing Pumpkins). The former includes three pieces of non-free media: the album cover, a clip of a song, and a promotional photo of the band. The latter includes none of these. There is no technical or legal reason why es.wp can't include this media but they have simply chosen that their edition of Wikipedia will not include any non-free media. Generally, the WMF doesn't impose any conformity amongst the different communities to force them to include non-free/fair use media, so that's the situation. If you are familiar with Russian, you can appeal to the community at ru.wq and see if they want to revisit their standard but they probably won't. As an aside, media being free as in libre is not the same thing as it being free as in "not costing money". You can charge money for public domain works: go to any bookstore and they will sell you a copy of Huckleberry Finn. —Justin (koavf)TCM 05:16, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Proposed "Variant Translations" or "Variants" section[edit]

When there is an extensive list of variant translations, might there be a section created such as "Variant translations" or "Variants" where, similar to the "Reference" section, something like a {{reflist}} could be placed, e.g., {{varlist}}. The variant list could then be enclosed within something like <var><var/> tags. Then an entire section of the variant translations could be viewed under the "Variant translations" at the discretion of the reader, rather than being offered only a single path of reading through the list of variants until the next original quote is reached. This idea presented itself while reading the Wolfgang Pauli article, where a screen full of six variants is listed under the first quote.
ELApro (talk) 16:51, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Free 'RSC Gold' accounts[edit]

I am pleased to announce, as Wikimedian in Residence at the Royal Society of Chemistry, the donation of 100 "RSC Gold" accounts, for use by editors wishing to use RSC journal content to expand articles/ items on chemistry-related topics. Please visit en:Wikipedia:RSC Gold for details, to check your eligibility, and to request an account.

How else can the RSC assist your work on Wikiquote? Pigsonthewing (talk) 13:38, 20 December 2014 (UTC)