Talk:Vulcan proverbs

Surak's Scroll

I have removed an inappropriate credit to "Shlomi of Vulcan" from the article. Since the planet Vulcan is fictional, no such person exists, except possibly as a nickname for a real person or an unexplained fictional character, and credits do not belong in articles unless part of published works by real people cited in a "References" section. Also, while I haven't been an active Trekker for many years, I've never heard of "Surak's Scroll". If this is a real work (e.g., a Star Trek universe publication or a reference mentioned or documented in one or more Star Trek episodes or novels), I urge the editor(s) responsible for these additions to cite these references. As it stands, this is indistinguishable from fan fiction, which is not canonical, and may not to provide justification to avoid the article's deletion. — Jeff Q (talk) 02:28, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I have removed the probably fan-written/compiled "Surak's Scroll" data and restored 24.218.222.31's single quote from Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. I'm hoping that any folks who have as much enthusiasm for Vulcan sayings as the contributor of "Surak's Scroll" had will add quotes with appropriate sources; i.e., explicitly name the canonical Star Trek works that produced them. — Jeff Q (talk) 08:09, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Quiet Response

You, sir, are quite irritating. This page continas more realevant information than many of the Afghani proverbs, and yet you claim it should be deleted? I suggest that you leave well enough alone and stop causing problems on Wiki. Everyone knows that Vulcans are not real, don't be a killjoy. — TristanSabel (talk) 11:39, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

TristanSabel, I found your "quiet response" quite disconcerting. It is clearly driven by emotion and based on a surfeit of logic, and as you know, "passions stir up strife, logic appeases the mind" [rumored Surak Scroll 5.11]. Wikiquote is a compendium of quotes from notable sources. As a fictional character of some reknown, Surak is, of course, a very notable source, provided it can be shown that these quotes are indeed from him. I've stated that I've never heard of this supposed scroll, but because I love knowledge, I wish to be corrected if possible [ibid, 4.7]. By acknowledging my lapse in Trek experience, I have sought humility, for "where there is humility, there is logic" [ibid, 4.5]. I am hoping that knowledgeable editors will follow the principle that "a logical woman builds her estate" [ibid, 5.5] by providing the citations needed to give this content credibility. By promoting the Wikiquote goal of accuracy over mass content, we follow the principle that "better is a little substance with logic, than great wealth in ignorance" [ibid, 5.10]. I beg you to aid us in this effort and "not be wise in your own conceit" [ibid, 3.1]. I would prefer to make a new friend and supporter than to "disregard those who volunteer to remain ignorant of truth" [ibid, 2.4]. I ask you to "honor logic by following after it" [ibid, 3.2] and make this article delete-resistant by adding recognized sources. One or more book or episode titles or authoritative web pages in a References sections will do nicely. Thank you for your help. — Jeff Q (talk) 19:38, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nice job, JeffQ:) And TristanSabel, if you look at the WQ:VFD page, you'll see that in fact JeffQ saved this page from deletion initially, when we thought that the Nixon quote implies that this page is a hoax. Anyway, JeffQ, I guess that some people just get upset when they see the VFD banner standing out at the top of the article - it does seem somewhat of a double standard, because most articles have quotes without sources (if the article is structured, then unsourced/unsorted quotes are in an attributed section). Sams 23:18, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You raise a good point, Sams. I'm afraid that we tend to operate on two principles which are perhaps not ideal, but are practical given our community size: reviewing only things that folks call attention to, and an ill-defined sense of what's plausible. Rmhermen called our attention to this article, and I found the content implausible because (A) conversant as I am with Star Trek, I've never heard of "Sarak's Scroll"; (B) there wasn't a single Google hit for any variation of "Sarak['s] Scroll[s]" (an impressive feat that bodes ill for this content); and (C) the text is surprisingly redundant and not terribly pithy, making me think a fan compiled it from legitimate "Vulcan" sayings and embellished considerably. I'm still waiting to be corrected on this possible misconception. If this material is deleted, and if it rises high enough on my priority list, I may add back quotes I recognize from real Trek sources over time. — Jeff Q (talk) 01:26, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vote for deletion notice

This article was preserved after a vote for its deletion. See its archived VfD entry for details. — Jeff Q (talk) 07:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Support for vote closing. Relevant discussions on vote itself are found on WQ:VFDA and WQ:AN. your participation to discussion will be welcome as well your editing. --Aphaia 08:06, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Nothing unreal...

Smartasses.

Attribution

Shouldn't the actual authors of these proverbs, i.e. the screenwriters, be given credit for the quotations? Since Vulcans are fictional characters, isn't it Wikiquote policy to cite the authors of quotations rather than fictional characters? I'm thinking Shakespeare is credited for "To be or not to be," and even for "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears." The most famous of these proverbs, probably "Live long and prosper" and "Only Nixon can go to China," have gone beyond their origins into the English language, I daresay. So I think their authors should be given credit, and it should be cross-listed on their pages. Bruxism (talk) 07:15, 10 April 2013 (UTC)