Talk:Israel–Hamas war

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Dubious

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Surplus

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  • I'm Jake Tapper in Washington, where the state of our union is rather terrified that this brutal war between Israel and Hamas is about to get much bigger and much worse, more desperation in the Middle East this morning.
This was the scene after an Israeli strike in Gaza just hours ago, as people rushed to save survivors stuck under the rubble. Now the Israeli government says, after eight days of a brutal air campaign, it is now preparing -- quote -- "significant ground operations," a reminder that Hamas embeds itself within the Palestinian population, in response to the devastating terrorist attacks in which 1,000 Israelis were slaughtered, the deadliest day for the Jewish people since the Holocaust.
And that was, of course, accompanied by the kidnapping of more than 100 innocent people from Israel.
And, this hour, Israel is warning the Lebanese group Hezbollah, which the U.S. considers to be a terrorist group, about any further escalations from the north after the two sides escalated, exchanged fire earlier today.
Meanwhile, tens of thousands of innocent civilians in Gaza, a population of 2.3 million, are trying to flee. There are reports from inside the country that Hamas, which uses human shields, has set up blockades to stop its own people from escaping.
Earlier today, U.S. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan told me that Hamas is blocking civilians, including Americans, from using the only viable exit from Gaza, the Rafah Crossing, into Egypt's Sinai Desert. Sullivan also told me that water service has been restored by Israel to Southern Gaza.
Earlier this week, Israel cut off supplies of electricity, food, water, and medicine to Gaza until Hamas frees its hostages, including some Americans.
  • I had to take a short break from reading about what’s happening in Gaza. I saw one too many images of dead kids on Twitter and just had to lie down for a while.... People are going insane, in the same way they went insane after 9/11. In the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks there was this shrieking emotional intensity which saw critical thinking go out the window and saw people’s minds consumed with a rabid lust for Muslim blood. People have a serious case of 9/11 brain this week, and it’s more than a little scary.... It is very fitting, then, that numerous political and media figures have been working to brand the attacks this past Saturday as “Israel’s 9/11”. After 9/11 everyone lost their minds and started believing a bunch of lies and consenting to power-serving agendas that went on to do orders of magnitude more damage than the initial traumatic event did, and we’re seeing that same infernal trajectory unfolding again today with Israel.

Sources for quotes in this article?

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This recent article contains 22 31 33 39 51 quotes which are sourced from "aje. io", another 19 that are souced from "aljazeera. com" + alarabiya 3. The only mention of the "aje. io" website I can find on enwp leads me to w:Ajegroup, but I cannot perform proper searches there. Can anyone else provide info? Thanks in advance Ottawahitech (talk) 19:38, 2 November 2023 (UTC) updated Ottawahitech (talk) 15:17, 4 November 2023 (UTC) updated Ottawahitech (talk) 15:40, 21 November 2023 (UTC) updated Ottawahitech (talk) 19:34, 7 November 2023 (UTC) updated Ottawahitech (talk) 00:26, 13 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

It's the URL shortening of the Aljazeera English website. Robin Loup (talk) 03:29, 3 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Al Jazeera is a reliable source. There is no issue with using it. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 12:45, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

Laos image

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Hi @Ottawahitech can you explain how the image of two random children in Laos is appropriate for this article? It really makes no sense to me, yet you've reverted this twice now...? CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 00:26, 4 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

I don’t believe that children should be detained ~ AOC
@CarmenEsparzaAmoux: How about this photo that I found on the Hebrew wikiquote under Children? Ottawahitech (talk) 02:41, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
I don’t believe that children should be detained ~ AOC
@CarmenEsparzaAmoux: I agree, my choice of image (see photo to the right) was not the best, but I cannot see how your image is better? Ottawahitech (talk) 15:07, 4 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
An image from this conflict would be most appropriate. Random photos of children do not add any contextualization to the quote or article. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 03:13, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
@CarmenEsparzaAmoux thanks for continuing this exchange.
Yes, I wish I could find a photo on Commons that better portrays the subject of Israeli children held hostage in Gaza by Hammas. You seem to know how to navigate Commons much better than I do, since you are the one who added all the other images this article (I think?).
The closest I can think of right now is a video I just added to the external links section in Santa Monica. I am sure someone will soon revert this edit, since it does not directly relate to the subject of the article, so you better hurry. Ottawahitech (talk) 13:59, 6 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
Could you please remove the random image of the child with the AOC quote? The AOC quote is attached to an image of strollers with posters of hostages. There is no need for the quote to be duplicated. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 12:44, 12 November 2023 (UTC)Reply

NPOV?

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This important page is being developed rapidly with 1 or 2 individuals making almost all of the contributions. I cannot follow this rapid development, but it appears that very few quotes portray the side of Israelis.

If you have the time to contribute here is an article from https://www.ynet.co.il/news/article/yokra13660087 that I translated from Hebrew to English with the help of google translate:

  • "The omission of the testimonies and evidence will make it difficult to bring the sadists to international justice Videos documenting the horrors of October 7 are deleted from Hamas Telegram channels. A large part of the bodies were not recorded at all and tractors drive over the scenes of the massacre. Many survivors were not asked to testify. 4 different bodies deal with the collection of information, but they are not synchronized, sometimes competing. Ministry of Justice: 'The claims are baseless' "

Ottawahitech (talk) 17:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC) Clarrified: Ottawahitech (talk) 20:38, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

I'm having a bit of struggle understanding what you mean in the paragraph about "sadists," but in terms of portraying the side of Israelis, we do have pretty extensive quotation of Israeli officials - both governmental and military here already. I'm adding as many relevant and sourced quotes to the article as I can. CarmenEsparzaAmoux (talk) 03:55, 11 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
@CarmenEsparzaAmoux: Sorry I did not realize how poorly I had formated my original post. I hope it is clear now that "sadists" was translated from Hebrew from the source? Ottawahitech (talk) 20:43, 19 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
This article is a joke. Completely NPOV, reflecting a single side of the conflict. What Israelis are quoted reflect the most extreme and violent portions of Israeli discourse, while all Palestinian quotes reflect Palestinian victimhood. A large portion of comments are a collection of sayings that completely fail the most basic tests of notability, a basic requirement of Wikiquote. There are even anonymous quotes in here and tweets by random X users. If seems that having an opinion is sufficient to warrant inclusion. Poliocretes (talk) 08:34, 22 November 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Poliocretes, thanks for joining the discussion. While I agree with some of the points you raise, I wonder if you are willing to help make this into a "non-jok" ENWQ page? Ottawahitech (talk) 20:44, 2 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
@Poliocretes We are inspecting this in our mailing list, seemed to be some sockpuppets trying to make POV-pushing. Lemonaka (talk) 00:15, 3 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Am I "Proxy editing"?

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I have been participating on the attached page since 1 November 2023 and have made almost 50 contributions (edits), all in good faith. However, it appears that my mere participation in an article about a controversial topic, and the fact that I have undone an edit by an admin who said in their edit summary that the edit was a "cleanup" is making me clash with the ENWQ ruling class. I believe that the edit that I have undone was an act of censorship not a cleanup. I also believe the warning of Proxy editing is an error made by an admin who is too busy to investigate such matters in depth before jumping to conclusions.

What do others think?

Thanks in advance for any input from the community on this matter, I promise not to get upset if you criticize my actions politely, Ottawahitech (talk) 00:16, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

After review of the edits, I would tend to agree that the removal of the quote does not appear to be justified - and I would ask @Lemonaka: to explain why they felt it was a necessary removal. I also do not believe that you were acting as a proxy for anyone else and I question that accusation as well. I invite Lemonaka to provide some explanation. But, this is just a view of the interaction on the surface - I reserve judgment until all have had a chance to provide their views.
I would however also question your use of the phrase "ENWQ ruling class" - I'm not sure why you feel an apparent antagonism towards admins, but I believe we try to be fair in general. If you have other specific complaints, feel free to share them. ~ UDScott (talk) 03:37, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
@UDScott
Sorry for being late, I was checking the edits from these puppets and I found a quote they added to the content page so I decided to remove it. I misjudged it as a POV-pushing. Regarding this case, I regret that it was a wrong judgment on my part, and I admit that this is my fault. After they submitted this question today, I also asked Koavf, Antandrus and Ferien for advice.
I have to admit that losing enough judgment and acting hastily is indeed my problem. But I've been a little stressed recently because this user kept mentioning me, from Wikiquote:Admin_accountability_poll, to the recent accusation of problematic rollbacks, to today's situation. I'm trying my best to explain my actions to them, but it seems a little bit difficult. I'm not censoring any quotes as they accused.
I have never thought of myself as a ruling class, instead I always thought of myself as a helper. In previous conversations, I have also mentioned how I should better serve rather than manage. I could withdraw my warning and apologize, none of that would be a problem, my only question would still be, "how can I do better?" Lemonaka (talk) 09:46, 6 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
I'm quite sorry, but I really don't know what's more I should explain. -Lemonaka 08:14, 8 December 2023 (UTC)Reply
@UDScott:
Re "I would however also question your use of the phrase "ENWQ ruling class" - I'm not sure why you feel an apparent antagonism towards admins, but I believe we try to be fair in general. If you have other specific complaints, feel free to share them":
You are making unwarranted assumptions, but this is not the right place to discuss this - why don’t you bring this up at the village pump. Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 02:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ottawahitech, I don't feel that I have anything to bring up at the Village pump. I was responding to your choice of phrase in your post. If you feel there are issues with the admins here, I would encourage you to open a discussion there. If not, so be it. ~ UDScott (talk) 13:39, 2 January 2024 (UTC)Reply

Quotability

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I removed the next quotes because they fail to meet WQ:Q. They have authors that are barely notable, they aren't particularly witty, pithy, wise, eloquent, or poignant and they aren't independently well known:

  • Palestinian-Americans watched our president hug a man who called our race the "children of darkness" and we're supposed to act normal about it? How is this okay?
  • We were forced out of our homes. The situation is indescribable. What you see on TV screens is not even 5 percent of what we are living on the ground. People are killed, torn to pieces; others charred to death; others severely injured; many left homeless; many children killed and more orphaned. Our home inside Gaza was destroyed, we were forced to come to Rafah.
  • Ursula von der Leyen and her closest advisers – thought that this would be an Ukraine moment, and so they need to condemn the terrorists and win the moral argument. But I think they’ve just been purely ignorant of the scale of oppression Palestinians have experienced, and the widespread understanding of the conflict as this being a violent reaction to occupation.
  • We got a call three times. They were threatening this time there’s no mercy and that’s why we had to evacuate. We have as much room to sleep as prisoners in solitary confinement. I wanted to stay and I came out crying, actually. I didn’t want to leave my house. But I also felt like this is not a choice I’m going to make on my own because I have three kids to survive with. I’m talking to you from a market that was bombed twice. I can see the destruction with my own eyes right now. But I have no choice, my kids have nothing to wear. The driver told us specifically that there is a limit for the packages we can carry.
  • I am not the same person my mind goes numb as I try to process some of the death and destruction and loss around, being still alive seems to be the hardest problem
  • I learned invaluable lessons from Cambodians on surviving a genocide, sharing mere grains of rice with family. From the women in Darfur, I grasped the essence of nurturing children, knowing the bitter truth that not all might survive. The people of Gaza teach me new lessons
  • There are air raids everyday. We can’t sleep or eat. We have no fuel, no electricity. We can’t even go to the bathrooms. They are treating us like we are animals. And the world is silent. The US is giving Israel legitimacy to do whatever they want to Palestinians. This is collective punishment. Everything is being targeted.
  • Still out of internet, water, food, safety, home, landlines and certainty. Mobile networks are weak. So many families are displaced, humanitarian situation is beyond dire, thousands killed & injured, hundreds of thousands are traumatized.
  • Toughest, bloodiest, longest and darkest night in #Gaza. Heavy bombings everywhere, too many killed. I don't know why we post or tweet when the world clearly doesn't care. It's been 17 days & counting.
  • Israeli forces have killed 9,000 and wounded 32,000 under the title of defence. It has the cover from the US and EU, and at the end of the day, it is not accountable. The political aim, at the end of the day, is to relocate and force the civilians to leave the north to the south. But it is too early to talk this about because we have seen very stiff resistance from Palestinian resistance groups and many casualties from the Israeli soldiers.
  • Your action clearly contradicts various international treaties and agreements that are apply to the existence of Palestine. You have destroyed the international rules of the game, insulted the authority of the UN, torn apart the sense of justice, and hurt human values, and tarnished the face of human civilization.
  • What we feel is really shocking and bad is that the whole world has been witnessing this crime and seeing everything that is happening in front of everybody, and no one has stopped, and no one has said loudly this is not allowed. Where is the international community? Where is the international organisation which is made to help and support the health system in the war areas to make sure that humanitarian needs are met in the war areas in war times?
  • We must mobilize and stop further crimes of Israel.
    • Mohammad Mokhber
  • When [Western outlets] focus on these claims of 40 beheaded babies and women being gang-raped, then what they are effectively doing is justifying the brutality of Israel’s counterattack. How else do you sell the idea of self-defence when [Israel] is bombing what is basically a concentration camp?** Lina Mounzer, quoted in Western coverage of Israel’s war on Gaza – bias or unprofessionalism?
  • Israel claims Jews as its national asset, and it weaponises us, as Jews – both as bodies in the demographic battle vis-a-vis non-Jews and particularly Palestinians, and ideologically as born representatives of the Jewish state – [and] seeks to do that to Jews worldwide. That claim, in turn, makes [us] the human shields of the state, as it assaults Palestinians under its settler-colonialist agenda, be it through ongoing ethnic cleansing, through siege or through seasonal massacres.
  • As scholars who have devoted our professional lives to studying Palestine/Israel and to enlightening both students and the general public about the region, we are deeply troubled by the coverage that we are witnessing in most U.S. print and broadcast media... It is quite apparent to us that the Israeli government is attempting to condition Western public opinion to accept an onslaught against the Gaza Strip.
  • The war could not be ended with ceasefire.
  • There are now contagious diseases that are running rampant. We’re seeing an increase in chickenpox, scabies, respiratory disease, diarrhoea. You have to remember there’s no clean water so all the diseases that go along with a sanitation system that’s not working are going to peak. We’re talking about an outbreak of cholera. And then you have women who are pregnant and not receiving prenatal care. This is happening right now.
  • The first day of the war there were a number of beatings, female inmates were beaten. They told me no celebrations, and on the day of my release I’m not allowed to leave my house, raise any signs or banners, use a megaphone. And if I break any of these rules I will be taken back.
  • When we’re talking about direct attacks on medical facilities in Gaza, it hasn’t started yesterday or today. The decision not to let any clean water, food, fuel for the hospital generators in is already an attack on the Gaza health system. The facts on the ground are clear. Patients and medical staff are being targeted, they are being put at risk.
  • If we don’t treat Gaza as an enemy, we will never get out of the rounds and each time it is going to get worse to the point that we reached the acute situation of [October 7] morning. The state of Israel needs to understand and accept that there are no innocents in Gaza.
  • We know that the United Nations is in a way controlled by specific countries, and those countries accepted the Israeli narrative, they accepted the victimisation by Israelis, and they basically imposed their impact on the UN. What we see in the al-Shifa complex is another story about this lack of ability of international community and organisations, they have no response, they have no tools. Why do those organisations exist?

Robin Loup (talk) 22:35, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

More barely notable quotes:

The high number of displaced people are no longer sheltering in the courtyard of the hospital but are now inside the hospital, including in the corridors ~ Marwan Abusada
  • The corridors are full of injured people. The ER rooms are beyond full. We have zero capacity to treat all the injured people. The high number of displaced people are no longer sheltering in the courtyard of the hospital but are now inside the hospital, including in the corridors. There is a high chance of infectious diseases spreading between patients and those displaced.
  • Dear colleagues, the situation at al-Shifa now is extremely dangerous. We, as medical staff, want to leave but we cannot, we might not survive until morning. We don’t want to be killed here just only because we were committed to our patients and our medical profession. I am calling for help urgently. Please do whatever you can through your governments or through the International Red Cross to arrange a safe corridor for medical staff.
  • The nature of the cases that arrive at the hospital is terrifying. The type of burns that we receive are not like previous wars and neither is the number of casualties. The majority of the cases that I receive are children and women. Most of the people who come for treatment are civilians.
  • Israel is getting the message that with each passing day and as the Palestinian death toll rises they continue to lose international support. What minuscule pressure the Biden Administration is putting on them is proof that unconditional support cannot go on forever. I think they’re trying to kill as many Palestinians as possible in this window of opportunity they have where they’re confident that the US is going to go to bat for them no matter what they do.
It includes the testimony of first responders who found Israeli women and girls, murdered,Z in conditions that made it clear they had been raped. A witness who gave video testimony spoke about seeing a woman being gang raped. It includes the video of a young Israeli woman, her pants bloodsoaked, being dragged by her hair by Hamas abductors, and footage of other women stripped of their clothing.
It includes testimony gathered by a civil commission headed by an international law expert documenting atrocities against women and children by Hamas on October 7. The mountain of evidence reveals the unimaginable viciousness of the Hamas terrorist attacks.
  • We're on the fourth floor, there's a sniper who attacked four patients inside the hospital. One of them has a gunshot wound directly in his neck, and he is a quadriplegic, and the other one in the abdomen.



  • Israel says the homes bombed are Hamas houses. In the same breath Israel claims to warn homeowners of imminent bombing. Question: why warn homeowners if they are Hamas, isnt the whole point of your butchery to eradicate Hamas? Truth is that Israel’s war is on every soul in gaza.
  • It's really heartbreaking. We've always grew up to hear the stories of the Nakba, we've never imagined that we would grow up to live it. It happened in 1948 because it wasn't televised, the world didn't know what's going on in Palestine. But now it's quite disgraceful that it's televised carnage and the world is literally watching."
    • Ahmed Abofoul [1]

Robin Loup (talk) 23:28, 26 December 2023 (UTC)Reply