User talk:Ningauble/Archive 17
- 1 Greek proverb
- 2 Joseph Masclet
- 3 Civilization IV deletion
- 4 Irving Fiske
- 5 Pacatus Drepanius
- 6 too verbose? (II)
- 7 Urgent message
- 8 Virgil
- 9 TOC limit
- 10 You can add source
- 11 Enemy of the State
- 12 Edit Revert
- 13 Virgil (2)
- 14 Are there objective criteria?
- 15 Category deaths
- Yes Ρητά και παροιμίες, every quotation needs a citation. This is a basic requirement: see Wikiquote:Sourcing. Regarding proverbs in particular: since they are widely repeated by definition, it should be easy to find citations where they are repeated. However, as noted in the section at WQ:SOURCE#Proverbs, it is best to cite the earliest and/or most authoritative source that can be found, in order to help readers understand the origin.
Why are citations needed for things that are purportedly well known, like proverbs? We need a verifiable source every time because contributors are sometimes mistaken, or even making it up. Readers must be able to check the source and see for themselves that it is true.
The same proverb (or very close, guessing at the meaning of the broken grammar above) can be found in English as "they stumble that run fast", from William Shakespeare, Romeo and Juliet (1597), Act II, scene 3, line 94. If you can find the same thing in English translation of a Greek writer from antiquity, or at least earlier than the 16th century, it would be a very valuable contribution to Wikiquote. (It might even tell us where Shakespeare got it!) ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:40, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
- While it may indeed be a popular expression in Greece today, I am not sure Greek Gateway is a reliable source. In general, collections on the internet that do not cite their sources are not very useful resources for Wikiquote.
It would be very interesting to discover whether modern Greeks actually got the expression from a translation of Shakespeare's popular play, or whether Shakespeare (or his contemporaries) actually got it from reading classical Greek literature. (The earliest sources I could find on Google Books  do not shed much light on the question, at least to me.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:06, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
- Shakespeare probably knew no Greek. I don't know if he knew Latin, but "they stumble that run fast" is reminiscent of Seneca's Quod evenit in labyrintho properantibus; ipsa illos velocitas inplicat ("This is what happens when you hurry through a maze; the faster you go, the worse you are entangled"). If I had to guess, I'd say Shakespeare came to it the same way I did, through Montaigne's Essays (popular at the time), specifically the 10th chapter of the third book, where he writes: "la hastiveté se donne elle mesme la jambe" (9th chapter in this English translation: "Haste trips up its own heels"). ~ DanielTom (talk) 20:21, 1 September 2016 (UTC)
I found the source to google books Greek and English Proverbs. Who hurries Stumbles. Sfirikse to Whoever hurry,Stumbles! . If said first Shakespeare or an ancient Greek i don't know.--Ρητά και παροιμίες (talk) 07:21, 2 September 2016 (UTC)
- Okay, the book Greek and English Proverbs by Panos Karagiōrgos appears to be a citable source. (The Sfirikse to blog is not.) This is a good find Ρητά και παροιμίες.
Interestingly, the same Karagiōrgos has a recent book, Anglo-Hellenic Cultural Relations (2015), that may have clues to a possible Shakespeare connection. Chapter 4 reviews the first translation of Shakespeare into Greek in 1819. Evidently Greece under the Ottoman Empire had been unaware of Shakespeare's existence! Chapter 5 discusses the influence of Shakespeare on modern Greek literature thereafter, first flourishing mid 19th century. This is precisely the same age as the earliest mention of the Greek proverb that I was able to find in Google Books.
To support or debunk speculation that the Greek proverb came from Shakespeare, it would be very interesting to learn (1) whether Greek translations of the above line from Romeo and Juliet closely match the proverb, and (2) whether any uses of the proverb can be found that predate those translations.
This is interesting to me because, in the words of WQ:SOURCE#Evaluating sources, "One of the purposes of a compendium of quotations like Wikiquote is to assist users, whether students, scholars, or just curious people, in understanding the origin of a quotation." ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC) (revised 14:43, 2 September 2016 (UTC), Ningauble (talk))
I sent a request to the BnF asking referencing this letter with the quote. This quote is really important for the related Wikipedia article. It neatly shows why Masclet was important on the subject of Lafayette. Genium (talk) 20:13, 5 September 2016 (UTC)
- If evidence that he gave an address about Lafayette is needed in the Wikipedia article, then add a footnote to that article. It is not Wikiquote's purpose to provide footnotes for Wikipedia, but to collect notably quotable quotes. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:37, 6 September 2016 (UTC)
Civilization IV deletion
Even though the page on Civilization IV does not use original quotes, it tells the precise origin of each one and separates those which are dubtious and misattributed. It would be helpful to people who played the game and want to know the veracity and provenience of the quotes without the need of visiting many different pages. As I understood, the originality guideline you cited only says that the quotes must be attributed to the actual person who said them, and that's not a problem in the article I've created. So why delete it? - Alumnum (talk) 22:47, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
- Alumnum, there are about a zillion people and works that quote famous quotations; it is what makes them famous quotations. We do not quote those people and works quoting others; we quote people and works that say something famously quotable themselves, in their own words. It may indeed be helpful to people who are interested in people and works that quote others, but it is not Wikiquote's purpose to catalogue who quoted what. "The Wikiquote community prefers to use sources which are as close to the original author or speaker as possible". ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:46, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
- Ladybelle Fiske, more pertinent than how often he repeated himself, for Wikiquote's purposes, is how often other people quoted him. Unless his words are widely quoted by persons not related to him, obscure memorabilia preserved by friends and family is not a useful resource for Wikiquote. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:22, 20 September 2016 (UTC)
Are enough these references? which is common are wrote in Spanish, but you can search it with the word "Pacato" in the search of your browser. Thanks for your time. [www.enciclopedia1.com/h/hi/hispania.html ]  --Vvven (talk) 14:59, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
- Vvven, it is better to cite a high quality translation of the original source. The only known surviving work by Pacatus Drepanius is a speech in honor of Emperor Theodosius I, preserved in the Panegyrici Latini. A good translation (with extensive notes and commentary) may be found here with the pertinent passage on page 452. ~ Ningauble (talk) 22:50, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
- I will work on including this in the article tomorrow (I am busy now). If you do not have much English then it may be difficult for you to contribute to the English Wikiquote. ~ Ningauble (talk) 23:04, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
- Done. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:43, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
I could help with my time, to find references, If you could tell me how you found these original references on Pacatus that really help me, not only for wikiquotes but the rest of wikis--Vvven (talk) 18:06, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
- Google Books™ is your friend. After reviewing the English Wikipedia article on Pacatus Drepanius and the linked article on Panegyrici Latini I determined that, if the quote is genuine, this could be the only possible source. Then I searched Google Books for an authoritative translation, and searched within their online copy for key phrases to locate the quote. It helps that I have years of practice doing this kind of research. ~ Ningauble (talk) 21:22, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
too verbose? (II)
I'm still experimenting, but here: "Opening lines, 1–5 (1–4 in the Greek text)" seems to be, besides condescending to the reader (they can count to 5), probably too verbose, especially as it is repeated later ("Lines 21–24 (15–17 in the Greek text)", etc.). Can you suggest a better way? ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:50, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- It seems okay to me, particularly in the second instance. Quoting the Greek is a Good Thing™. Citing where it is in the Greek is not a bad thing. One could omit the word "text", as I did in the previous two sentences. It is grammatically odd to elide the noun, but very common practice. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:19, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
- Here, I'm thinking of adding an explanatory note: "Medea contemplating suicide, and deciding against it". Is it good English? Maybe you can think of a better description. (Or maybe it's not necessary to add a note at all.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 00:47, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- The English is fine, but this seems more annotation than necessary. It may be helpful to indicate the passage is from Medea's point of view and, to a lesser extent, that the subject matter concerns suicide; however, it seems quite unnecessary to annotate a development, "and deciding against it", that is explicit in the text. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:26, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
An Essay Against Verbosity
- There is much to be said for brevity. (You can quote me on that.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:39, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Numerous IP addresses continuously make unnecessary edits (and vandalism edits to boot) on the following pages:
- ...to name but a few, and they refuse to cease and desist, nor even explain their edits. I request that all those IP addresses be blocked for the maximum time allowed, and that all pages on which they have edited be protected for at least six months. WikiLubber (talk) 17:49, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
- I have no objection. At least the image is directly relevant to the quote. In this instance anachronism may be a virtue: it demonstrates that the quote has stood the test of time. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:49, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Short answer: That template is completely nonfunctional because it depends on undefined CSS classes. A longer answer here describes why this sort of thing happens. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:53, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
You can add source
Hello Ningauble, You added a tag to African proverbs about adding source. I would have improve the article by adding source but i don"t know how to add source to the page. You can improve the article by adding source to it or you teach me how to add source to the article.--Reekado (talk) 14:48, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
- Reekado, if you are not sure how to place your sources in the article, take a look at the French proverbs article for a good example to follow. For information on sourcing generally, see Wikiquote:Sourcing. Note in particular the sections on Evaluating sources and Proverbs in that guideline. I cannot add sources for these quotes myself, because I do not know where you found them. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:34, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
Enemy of the State
Good day Ningauble, Why was the edit i made to List of television shows reverted. I added youtube to the External links below because youtube is among the category of TV. I need your explanation, you might be correct.--Yung miraboi mark (talk) 20:54, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yung miraboi mark, the purpose of Wikiquote list pages is to help people find Wikiquote articles: Wikiquote is not an internet directory. ~ Ningauble (talk) 21:04, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
- Pardon the lateness of my reply. I have been preoccupied.
My view on this sort of "cf." or "compare" annotation is asymmetrical. It is appropriate on a page like Enoch Powell to identify his allusion to the Aeneid because it clarifies what he was talking about, but it is not appropriate on a page like Virgil to mention any of the myriad people who have alluded to or quoted from his works. I would make an exception for an otherwise obscure source if a secondary reference is needed to demonstrate notability, but such is not the case for Virgil. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:18, 13 November 2016 (UTC)
Are there objective criteria?
I was planning to make a series of additions, but was taken aback when you deleted my quote on Greed from Khaled Hosseini -- a very well cited writer, whose quotes are found on numerous quotation cites. This particular one was taken from a collection of quotes on Greed on Goodreads. Is there any way I can tell if a quote is acceptable or not, so as to avoid guesswork and waste of time? —This unsigned comment is by Asaduzaman (talk • contribs) 17:12, 4 December 2016.
- This is certainly a notable book by a notable author, and I would have no objection to adding this quote to the Khaled Hosseini article (with citation to where it appears in the book). The reason I removed the quote from the Greed article is actually subjective: because it is not a short, pithy quote that says something really new about greed. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:40, 4 December 2016 (UTC)
From reading the "about" it seems that there are no set policies -- or these are being incubated -- So I would propose a discussion on this as a policy guideline:
"Quotes should be short, pithy, and say something really new about the subject"
- I have been using the idea (as briefly discussed a few years ago at Wikiquote:Village pump archive 31#Category:19th century deaths) that small categories do not need to be broken up into multiple smaller categories. Note that Category:11th century deaths, including its subcategories, contains only 23 articles. I do not think it is useful to to have individual year categories, most of which would be empty, to organize these few articles by historical context. (Empty categories will eventually be deleted during routine cleanup.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:19, 10 December 2016 (UTC)