Wikiquote:Village pump archive 18

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January 2008, originally posted to Wikiquote:Village pump.

Village pump archive 18[edit]

Dispute on remarks about Jews[edit]

There is currently a dispute that has been discussed at the Talk:Jesus page. User:Écrasez l'infâme insists that certain quotes by John Chrysostom about Jews belong on the page because they indicate certain important opinions and policies among early Christian leaders. That they are significant remarks is not disputed, and they arguably could be added to Chrysostom's page and the page on Jews, but I have agreed with another editor that they are not actually remarks about Jesus himself, and that they are not relevant to the Jesus page and don't belong there. Further comments are welcome as an indication of community opinion on the matter. ~ Kalki 19:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

We can't use the Jesus article as a dumping ground for remarks made long after His death. Put them on the page of the man who said them and that's it. Poetlister 21:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Again, Poetlister, you are the model of concision compared to my own verbosity (see Talk:Jesus). I've decided my motto is "never use a drill when an wrecking ball is available". ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks guys. The Jesus page could use some help. (On its talk page I made the case that it is WQ's most important.) Steve Dufour 03:18, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
Here is Saint John Chrysostom's quote in full:
    • [T]he Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer." … Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them." (Luke 19:27)
It invokes Jesus twice: the first time to say that the Jews refuse the "yoke of Christ", then a second time to explain that slaughtering the Jews as a consequence is precisely what Jesus meant in Luke 19:27. This quote, made by a highly influential leader of the early Church, a Sainted Archbishop of Constantinople, one of the only Three Holy Hierarchs, and a Doctor of the Church, is directly about Jesus and belongs on the page of quotes about Jesus, no matter how controversial or how uncomfortable it may make some editors. Écrasez l'infâme 20:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that anyone is denying that John Chrysostom is notable. He has a page here on Wikiquote and nobody is proposing it for deletion. Nor is anyone trying to stop these quotations being added to Chrysostom's page, where they belong. The question is whether every quotation with the Name of Jesus in belongs on His page. I say emphatically no. I would urge this editor to put the quotations in the right place, and to source the other quotations on that page. Poetlister 20:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
There are many people in all fields of human endeavor, like Jesus, Gautama Buddha, Charles Darwin, Louis Pasteur, Albert Einstein and innumerable others, who, even when surrounded by all forms of hostiltilies and bigotry, can persist in pursuing balanced and fair forms of progress in their lives and be very helpful to others in theirs. While acknowledging that errors and foolishness must be recognized, and to some extent reported upon and combatted with what wisdom they can muster, they are for most part far more interested in either discovering, expressing or gathering together the very best wisdom and insight they can for others to appreciate in their own lifetimes, and as a legacy in the ages to come.
There are of course others, who no matter how good-willed and amiable others might be, or wish to be, will insist on trying to find the worst things that have been said about others, or by others, intensely focused upon the stupidity in others which they can feel superior to, and which they may repeat to others, that they may go on feeling superior to anyone who doesn't sink to such depths of hostility and fervor as they do in their outrage and their willingness to be outraged. And thus new paths of bigotry and needless hostility can ever be fed by the stupidity of a few, until such a time as hopefully may come, when the general awareness of humanity that such behavior truly is itself a severe form of stupidity, can make even these extremely stupid people too embarrassed by their own stupidity as to persist in it.
Some of the recent re-additions might arguably be valid, but once again it all smacks of a rather obsessive focus on some of the darkest aspects of human history. Figuratively it is a further polluting of the general atmosphere which must exist for all to breathe with some of the foulest enunciations that can be found. I cannot applaud such zealousness, nor the obviously intense efforts that have been made to persist in spreading as much stupidity around as is possible.
People can often be extremely clever and effective in pursuing certain goals, but remain very stupid in the very choice of the goals they choose to pursue. There will always be an abundance of stupidity to be found in the past, but I do hope that there will be less in the future, and that more and more people will not be so stupid as to wish to focus on the stupidity of others any more than is absolutely necessary — as when it makes itself disruptive of the more worthy aims as exist in others.
I perceive that these recent attempts to reinsert material (which consensus had begun to clearly weigh against including) need a bit more editing, but I might not have time to attend to the matter fully. I personally happen to have far more on my mind than finding ways to further publish some of the foulest expressions of others that can be found, or getting into prolonged disputes with those who wish to. I have to be briefly leaving in a short while, and might not have time to attend to these matters further for at least a few hours. ~ Kalki 20:57, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree with what Kalki has to say. But I would also like to stress, both for this argument, and future arguments on other subjects, that a quote that merely mentions X is not necessarily about X. Écrasez l'infâme ("Crush the infamous") claims that his quote listed above "invokes" Jesus twice, but I think he means it "mentions" Jesus (I do not see this quote as actually "calling on" or "appealing to" Jesus). Let us boil this quote down to its essentials: "The Jewish people refused to accept the yoke of Christ." Here is a sentence with an almost identical structure: "The Jewish people refused to accept pork in their diet." Does anyone believe that this sentence is about pork? Obviously, the most correct place for these quotes would be on a page about Saint John Chrysostom, or the sayings of the early church. Possibly, they could be placed on a page about Jews (if suitably balanced by other quotes to insure NPOV). But they do not belong on a page about Jesus, as it is neither his opinion, or someone else's opinion about him. --Ubiquity 22:17, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree about the irrelevance of the quote on the Jesus page. Merely to "invoke" the name of Jesus does not make Jesus its subject. There is scarcely any limit to the number of quotes which could be added if all it takes is for someone notable to mention Jesus or to claim his approval. The quote from Luke 19:27 is already in the article. How Chrysostom interpreted it is not to the point. Aren't there a great many notable interpreters of the words of Jesus? Shall we, then, include them as well? The inevitable sprawl which would result would make the article virtually unreadable. - InvisibleSun 22:13, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

That has already happened. :-) Steve Dufour 23:40, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

These are among the most historically significant and influential words ever written about Jesus. Saint John Chrysostom's quote, obviously about Jesus, quotes Him directly, i.e., does not merely "mention" Him, to provide a theological justification for the treatment of the Jews that has been used thoughout Christianity's entire history, running through the 4th Lateran Council, to Luther and beyond. Even Hitler stressed this long history in his defense of the final solution. As this quote about Jesus illustrates, the person of Jesus Christ and His own words were used repeatedly by Christians to justify a policy of slaughtering Jews. This is historically significant and cannot be ignored or whitewashed by laughable claims that Chrysostom's quote about Jesus merely "mentions" or "invokes" (meaning cite as an appeal to authority) Jesus. Chrysostom's highly influential quote about Jesus was used on numerous occasions to slaughter Jews for the theological reasons Chrysostom gave: the Jews rejected and killed Christ, and Jesus implies to kill anyone who does not want Him to be king over them. These are Chrysostom words about Jesus, not mine. This is an important and significant quote about Jesus and belongs in a list of quotations about Jesus, regardless of their controversial nature. Écrasez l'infâme 11:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Btw Great Hierarch and Ecumenical Teacher, Archibishop of Constantinople, Saint John Chrysostom has his own entry on our project too. --Aphaia 13:45, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I just happened to look at the recent comments here, and I must remark the the statement that "These are among the most historically significant and influential words ever written about Jesus" is frankly absurd.
Do I consider them quotes worth knowing about? Yes. Do I consider them quotes anyone looking up quotes by or about Jesus simply has to know about? ABSOLUTELY NOT. They belong on John Chrysostom's page, where you are welcome to place them, and perhaps on the page on Jews, if you insist upon it, but they are rather off-topic on the Jesus page. The growing consensus of editors here seems to indicate that the page should remain more constrained in its focus. Though I have long been well aware of him, and can agree he played a prominent role in the formation of many forms of dogma, ask the vast majority of Christians who John Chrysostom was and you would draw a total blank. Many in total ignorance might even venture to think he might have been one of the apostles, but there have been dozens of people whith equal or far greater influence on Christian history, and an extensive exposition of their opinions and commentary is not something most of us wish to over-burden the Jesus page with.
Although a few people, in one way or another have found ways to either subtly or overtly do so, Wikiquote is not is not a place to vent one's particular form of hostilities against some particular person or group. I have been too busy with many other things to examine and edit all the recent changes that have occured on this and other pages that have interest for me, but I hope to do much this week, and get around to crossing a few tasks off of my extensive list of things to do here. Dealing with this is among the top dozen or so things about the project that are on my mind. I might get around to making a few edits sometime later today. ~ Kalki 17:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
A bit OT, your comments gave me a suggestion about your identity, Kalki :) No orthodox or coptic Christian may say "ask the vast majority of Christians who John Chrysostom was and you would draw a total blank". :-) Sorry I couldn't stop me to say, since it was so hilarious - but on other parts, I agree with you on this issue. Who should be responsible for the death of a human Jesus of Nazareth may be an interest for some people - but it is not directly related to his personality and if the article includes this topic, it may be overburdened. --Aphaia 17:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I am quite aware that Chrysostom is a major and respected figure among many, but I stand by my original comments. The vast majority of Christians don't have enough familiarity with history to be aware of him, but this is true of people in general about many significant figures in the traditions which they most respect or adhere to. ~ Kalki 18:31, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

In support of my statement that Chrysostom's quote about Jesus condoning the killing of the Jews is "among the most historically significant and influential words ever written about Jesus":

  • [A]lthough the tradition of Chrysostom continued to cause unbridled vituperation for Jews and Judaism, climaxing in the violence of 1096 and beyond, the modulating Augustinian position became, more or less, the "official" policy of the papacy … [G]overnmental coercion became the instrument though which the Church made its scornful commentary on Judaism. Here is the decisive turn in the history of Christian anti-Judaism, a turn whose ultimate disfiguring consequence was enacted in the political antisemitism of Adolf Hitler.

Here's another:

The direct intellectual lineage from Chrysostom to Hitler is standard, well-documented history in Christian antisemitism. The poorly justified and poorly argued attempts to purge a page of quotations about Jesus of this history are whitewashing, pure and simple. Écrasez l'infâme 21:41, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Whitewashing what? I will no doubt disagree with many here about who Jesus was, but I cannot suggest that Jesus was in any way responsible for Chrysostom's remarks. To pu tthem on the Jesus page is to whitewash Chrysostom.--Cato 22:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Chrysostom quotes Jesus from Luke 19:27. That's why Chrysostom's quote belongs in the section Quotes about Jesus, because it's a quote by Chrysostom about Jesus, in this case explaining why Jesus intended in Luke 19:27 a Christian policy to kill Jews that reject Him. It goes without saying that the subject of any quote is not responsible for what the writer says, especially after they're dead. For those who hold that Jesus was resurrected and was a living influence on Chrysostom and others, the question of responsibility remains an open problem in this case. Écrasez l'infâme 23:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Écrasez, your continued use of words like "uncomfortable", "whitewash" and "controversial" suggest to me that you have a point of view to push here. Just out of curiosity, I'd be interested in knowing whether you think the words of Chrysostom need to be on the page about Jesus because they are gospel or because they are appalling, and exactly who are the infamous you would like to crush. But neither of those have much to do with the matter at hand. You are the only one in this discussion who sees this as political. For the rest of us, it's a simple matter of grammar and usage. I've addressed the grammar issues earlier (that it is "Jews" rather than "Jesus" who are the subject of Chrysostom's remarks). As far as usage: why do people come to Wikiquote? Either to find a particular quotation, to learn what someone said, or to learn what people said about someone. In the first two cases, these quotes clearly belong on the John Chrysostom page (where they already are). If I were looking for them, that's where I'd look. If I wanted to learn about Chrysostom, these are important things to read. In the third case, they belong on the page about Jews. They tell me important things about how certain people felt about Jews. They don't tell me anything about Jesus — they weren't even made until almost 400 years after he lived, and they do not address any aspect of Jesus's personality or actions. --Ubiquity 22:53, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

My point of view is that highly significant quotes by and about Jesus should appear on Wikiquote's Jesus page. Chrysostom's quote is blatantly about Jesus because it quotes Him and explains why Chrysostom believes that Jesus condones a policy of killing Jews that reject Him. Again, Chrysostom's statement here is about Jesus. As I've documented clearly above, Chrysostom's statement about Jesus is viewed by many historians to be historically significant because it provided the theological framework for centuries of Christian antisemitism, culminating in Hitler's final solution. These are the reasons that Chrysostom's quote about Jesus belong in the section Quotes about Jesus: because it is a quote about Jesus, and because it is documented to be highly significant. Écrasez l'infâme 23:04, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
As has often been the case recently I had to interrupt my sessions here with activities elsewhere, but picking up the discussion again, the accusations that this is "poorly justified and poorly argued attempts to purge a page of quotations about Jesus of this history are whitewashing, pure and simple" are frankly TOTAL crap. NO ONE has said these quotes shouldn't be posted at the Chrysostom page or the page on Jews, but they remain primarily about Jews, and not about Jesus, and don't belong on that page. I will concede that you have made a somewhat valid claim that at least one of them could be included as having some reference to a statement of Jesus, but the level of relevance is one that is seems pretty strained to everyone but yourself.
Just for those who might not be aware of it, Écrasez l'infâme is a phrase made famous by Voltaire, who is someone I myself do admire, but addressing the person using it as a username, I would state: After a clear consensus of some of the regular editors of this project began to form against your inclusion of the quotes on the Jesus page, you have engaged in a blatantly besmirching the motives and objectivity of everyone but yourself in an attempt to whitewash your continuing efforts to place some of the foulest expressions that you can find in regard to some Christian's opinions everywhere which you can find to place them. We don't prohibit such activity, but I don't think most of us welcome it.
You have persisted in a haughty presumption of your own superiority to such ethnic bigotry as John Chrysostom was plainly guilty of in regards to the Jews, yet frankly, that you seem to be an extremely bigoted party against any form of traditional Christianity is extremely clear. I myself am certainly no apologist for it, but neither am so hostile to those who would wish to be as to condone an exaggerated and irrelevent emphasis on the defects of some Christians as a blanket condemnation of all Christianity, and upon Jesus himself.
You state that the "direct intellectual lineage from Chrysostom to Hitler is standard, well-documented history in Christian antisemitism" — even if one were to accept that very contestable claim the quotes remain remarks made primarly about Jews — NOT about Jesus. There are all manner of people who believe in rather dubious "direct intellectual lineages" of all kinds of ideas and opinions that have little real association, but though Hitler and his most fervent devotees might have wished to claim otherwise, I don't believe anyone with much rational competence would assert Jesus was the first great anti-semite. ~ Kalki 23:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[Resetting the indent for another of my essays. Ouch.] I have to say that I'd never heard of Chrysostom before this discussion (which, as Aphaia says, suggests where I'm not from), so I felt it important to get a perspective on his works to see how the quotes in question are treated in that context. Although Wikipedia is not a reliable source, it's usually pretty darn good for this purpose. w:John Chrysostom strongly suggests that although a few anti-Jewish Chrysostom homilies are an important part of his work, mostly because of how they were used centuries after he wrote them, they are only one small aspect of Chrysostom. Below is the entire "Antisemitism" section of a 5 April 2007 version of the WP article that passed a GA ("good article") check. (I've used that instead of the current version solely to emphasize general approval for the article state.)

Chrysostom's Adversus Judaeos homilies have been circulated by many groups to foster anti-Semitism. James Parkes called the writing on Jews "the most horrible and violent denunciations of Judaism to be found in the writings of a Christian theologian". His sermons against Jews gave momentum to the accusation of deicide — the idea that Jews are collectively responsible for the death of Jesus. British historian Paul Johnson claimed that Chrysostom's homilies "became the pattern for anti-Jewish tirades, making the fullest possible use (and misuse) of key passages in the gospels of St Matthew and John. Thus a specifically Christian anti-Semitism, presenting the Jews as murderers of Christ, was grafted on to the seething mass of pagan smears and rumours, and Jewish communities were now at risk in every Christian city." During World War II, the Nazi Party in Germany abused his work in an attempt to legitimize the Holocaust in the eyes of German and Austrian Christians. His works were frequently quoted and reprinted as a witness for the prosecution.

After World War II, the Christian Churches denounced Nazi use of Chrysostom's works, explaining his words with reference to the historical context. According to Laqueur, it was argued that in the 4th century, the general discourse was brutal and aggressive and that at the time when the Christian church was fighting for survival and recognition, mercy and forgiveness were not in demand. According to Patristics scholars, opposition to any particular view during the late fourth century was conventionally expressed in a manner, utilizing the rhetorical form known as the psogos, whose literary conventions were to vilify opponents in an uncompromising manner; thus, it has been argued that to call Chrysostom an "anti-Semite" is to employ anachronistic terminology in a way incongruous with historical context and record.

(FYI, the above is very well-sourced in the WP article, but I left out the sources so as not to complicate this discussion.) The way I see it, this pretty much says that Adversus Judaeos is about Jews and how they differ undesirably from Christians, who must keep to their own faith and practices, lest they be treated (wretchedly) like Jews. I have to agree with Ubiquity's "pork" analogy above — emphasis on Jews as non-Christians or even "Christ-killers" is much more about Jews and Christianity than it is about Jesus, just as quotes about Jewish dietary rules are more about Jewish practices than pithy statements about the individual food items.

The material of Adversus Judaeos is clearly quite famous and quite controversial, so it certainly has a place in Wikiquote. But that still doesn't mean quotes from there are primarily about Jesus. They are clearly about Jews, and secondarily and famously about anti-Judaism sentiments (possibly distinguishing that from modern anti-Semitism because of psogos, which must sound familiar to anyone who follows modern politics, at least in the U.S.).

As far as these continued arguments from Écrasez l'infâme that these quotes are specifically about and even from Jesus, they simply don't hold water. The quote he most works to justify above, starting with "Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness", he claims two specific Jesus references for.

  • First, he mentions "the yoke of Christ", which presumably alludes to Matthew 11:29: "Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." Matthew 11:29 is an attributed quote of Jesus. Chrysostom's allusion to it is not, nor is it about Jesus, but rather submission to and acceptance of the form of worship — Christianity.
  • Second, Chrysostom (not Jesus) says this, "And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: 'But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them.' (Luke 19:27)" While this includes a quote attributed to Jesus, Chrysostom's quote is about an interpretation of what Jesus meant. While Chrysostom can be quoted expressing his opinions, Wikiquote cannot allow interpretations of meaning as inclusion criteria.

This is especially tricky in religious texts, as they can readily be used to make just about any point, regardless of the apparent original intent. The particular quote from Luke is from the Parable of the Ten Minas, in which a "man of noble birth" actually uses the quoted statement to justify his punishment of his servant for not investing the master's money for interest and for supporting a delegation to discourage another country from making a king out of the master. Luke 19:26-27 quotes Jesus as saying of the master: "He replied, 'I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what he has will be taken away. But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." To me, that clearly justifies obsession with money making, ruthlessness, and above all, not to cross the powerful, lest you be killed. (That's what Jesus was all about, wasn't it?) I suppose the metaphor that Jesus is supposed to have expected his followers to understand is that those who follow and work for him will prosper, but those who reject him will perish, and that certainly seems to be the way that Chrysostom interpreted it. But it doesn't really matter. We don't interpret the quotes of other people. We must not treat A's published interpretations of B's quotes as words coming from B's mouth — citable quotes — but only as A's quotes. And just because A quotes B to make a point, that doesn't mean that the quote is about B. It's about the point.

Basically, this passage is clearly about Chrysostom's interpretation of a Biblical parable from Jesus as Chrysostom applied it specifically to Jews. There's far too much indirection to claim this is "about Jesus", especially when it is manifestly about the conflict between early Christians and their Jewish contemporaries. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 00:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Jeff Q, though you do raise some important issues, and ignoring the red herring that anyone may be confusing Chrysostom's quote of Jesus with Jesus' intent (no one knows what that is, or even if He ever uttered those words, after all), you have neglected the most important and obvious point: though Chrysostom's quote begins with a slur against the Jews, its intent is to show (by quoting Jesus from Luke 19:27) that Jesus condoned killing Jews that reject Christ. These are the very arguments used by Christians against Jews from the very beginning: Jews are Christ-killing deicides deserving of Christ-sanctioned death themselves for their rejection of Christ. How can anyone say that this is not all about Jesus with a straight face? If this most important and obvious point is not precisely about the person of Jesus, then what it is about? Écrasez l'infâme 03:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
P.S. Chrysostom was born 25 years after the Council of Nicaea and the imposition of the state-sponsored Christian church by Constantine, so the idea that there was some threat to Christianity from Judaism, or that "the Christian church was fighting for survival and recognition" in Chrysostom's lifetime is beyond absurd. Écrasez l'infâme 03:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe JeffQ would concede that he has little familiarity with the history of the early Christian churches, and probably very little interest in studying it, but though Chrystosom did live in a period of Christianity's ascendency to power and prestige, many of the points he made about the rhetorical nature of Chrysostom's most repugnant remarks are probably valid. Also, Chrysostom might well have had some fear of a possible resurgence of Jewish influence and prestige after the attempt Julian had been willing to make to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem, which could have proven embarrassing to developing Church attitudes and doctrines towards Jews, and to the supposed status of Christians as the new "chosen" people.

You began by posting 4 quotes from Chrysostom's Eight Homilies Against the Jews as if their relevance to the Jesus page were obvious, and treated their initial removal as "vandalism"; you have continued to treat every attempt to remove them from that page as sheer dull-witted obstinacy on everyone else's part, and are basically insisting that as you can make a case of a couple of them having some reference to statements of Jesus, that their relevance and importance is plain and that their placement on the Jesus page should not be challenged at all.

Everyone else who has commented has seen little or no relevance of the remarks to the Jesus page, and stated that they don't belong there. You have added them to the Chrysostom page, and none of us have disputed that this would be a proper place for them. As this is a project which is based on a respect for community consensus in cases of dispute, I believe that most or all of the remarks should be removed, once again, from the Jesus page, and I will attempt to review the page as a whole within the next week or so, as many things of only slight or dubious relevance seem to have been accreting there (as well as a few other places). ~ Kalki 08:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I simply included a quote by Chrysostom about Jesus on the page of Quotes about Jesus. As I and others have clearly documented, this quote is among the most historically significant and influential quotes ever made about Jesus, and it is glaringly obvious that this quote is about Jesus, because it provides the first written argument used by Christians for centuries that the Jews are Christ-killing deicides deserving of Christ-sanctioned death themselves for their rejection of Christ. It's true that some here have said that this quote really isn't about Jesus, but no one has provided an explanation why this is not about Jesus. Merely asserting something is not a valid argument, and no argument has been made here that addresses this key point. ow can anyone say that this is not all about Jesus with a straight face? As you, Jeff Q, and others admit, general knowledge of Chrysostom is very limited, which is all the more reason to include his most lasting and influential quotes on the person of Jesus on Wikiquote's page of quotes about Jesus. I'll ask my simple (unanswered) question again: if Chrysostom's argument that Jesus sanctions killing the Christ-killing Jews that reject Him is not precisely about the person of Jesus, then what is it about? Écrasez l'infâme 15:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
That you persist in being so oblivious as to ask "what is the remark about?" is somewhat appalling — read the section heading : "Dispute on remarks about Jews."
Most of your rhetorical questions have been abundantly answered — and that you now seem to be restricting your arguments to one quote out of the four is perhaps a sign of some progress of the force of common sense, but to say that you and others "have clearly documented, this quote is among the most historically significant and influential quotes ever made about Jesus" remains ludicrous, and simply repeating the assertion in bold doesn't make it otherwise. You haven't documented diddly that this quote is about Jesus. You've quoted a few people who's views you seem willing to take as absolutely authoritative on the matter of Chrysostom's significance in the rise of Western anti-semitism, and insulted anyone who would disagree as incompetent. It might well be a very significant remark made about Jews, that was significantly misused by the Nazis, and by others before and since, but that might serve as some primary origin of all western anti-semitism remains an extremely forced conjecture, and your repeated claim of its significance as one of the most ultimately notable statements about the person known as Jesus goes beyond the absurd and borders on the truly pathological. Such phrases as "this is why Christ said" were common among interpreters of his sayings since the writers of the Gospels. That this remark, added to a quote of Jesus (wrongly attaching far more extensive appeals to prejudice and bigotry to a few words of one of Jesus's parables) indicates the quote may have been included almost as an afterthought to Chrysostoms's primary remarks about Jews seems to be something you wish to remain oblivious to in your arguments for including them on the Jesus page. ~ Kalki 16:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Kalki, this is a libelous rant. I demand that you show where I "insulted anyone who would disagree as incompetent" immediately, or retract your unwarranted untruths and apologize. Écrasez l'infâme 21:23, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Though you might not make an overt declaration against any particular person, despite repeated objections by other editors (most of whom have expressed little or no attachment to Christian traditions) that this quote doesn't belong on the Jesus page, you have persisted in implying some overt bias on the part of others on behalf of them, and incompetence because they don't agree with you.

A few instances of that on this page alone:

"This quote, made by a highly influential leader of the early Church, a Sainted Archbishop of Constantinople, one of the only Three Holy Hierarchs, and a Doctor of the Church, is directly about Jesus and belongs on the page of quotes about Jesus, no matter how controversial or how uncomfortable it may make some editors."
"poorly justified and poorly argued attempts to purge a page of quotations about Jesus of this history are whitewashing, pure and simple."

And after extensive examples and explanations of why the quotes are not more than marginally about Jesus, even the one which includes an extremely misinterpreted direct reference to one of his statements:

"It's true that some here have said that this quote really isn't about Jesus, but no one has provided an explanation why this is not about Jesus. Merely asserting something is not a valid argument, and no argument has been made here that addresses this key point.

Perhaps you are inclined to think that the phrase "poorly justified and poorly argued attempts to purge a page of quotations about Jesus of this history are whitewashing, pure and simple" is not an insult to the intelligence and the integrity of the people who have expressed themselves here, but I would think that most would disagree with you on this as well. ~ Kalki 22:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Kalki: "You … insulted anyone who would disagree as incompetent"
Écrasez l'infâme: "show where I 'insulted anyone who would disagree as incompetent' immediately"
Kalki: "Though you might not make an overt declaration against any particular person …"
Thank you for your prompt admission that I levied no such insult. Let's overlook the pointless justification of twisting what I said into your unjust accusation and get back to the matter at hand.
Chrysostom said that Jesus sanctioned killing Jews because they killed and reject Christ. You say this a quote about the Jews. I say that this is a quote about Jesus, as it pertains to Jesus' recommended penalty for the Jews' involvement in His execution and their rejection of Him as God. Would you or someone else please address this central point and explain why you believe that Chrysostom's quote saying the Jesus approved killing Jews that reject Him is not about Jesus? Écrasez l'infâme 02:11, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

My "prompt admission" was that you made no such insult to any specific person, but I will repeat the assertion that you seem to be someone who persists in insulting, ignoring, or blithely denying the intelligence of everyone else who has weighed in on this issue thus far. Your appeal to "overlook the pointless justification of twisting what I said into your unjust accusation" might be entirely welcome if I considered my assertions unjust, but I do not. I rarely choose to be harsh in my criticism of people's apparent attitudes and behavior, but when I do, I make damn sure my criticisms are valid — and I don't try to deny the fact that I am engaging in criticism.

I have conceded at several points that you had succeeded in making a case for at least one of the quotes referencing a statement of Jesus, albeit incorrectly, and thus having at least a marginal relevance to the page — but I have not conceded that it has anything more than that. There is also no absolute rule of exclusion that I would embrace to prevent it from being retained, and I had not been in any hurry to remove it at this point, as I have been willing to await further indication of community consensus on whether that particular quote should be removed from the page or not. After the last two exchanges my inclination to retain it has actually decreased because of your obstinate insistence that if one can prove that a quote has some relevance to Jesus that it becomes sufficiently or even primarily about him, and must be retained, whether anyone else agrees it has sufficient relevance or not.
Your continually repeated opinion that it definitely belongs on the Jesus page, irrespective of whether most other people here agree to it belonging there or not is one that I cannot endorse. It is not your project to do entirely what you wish any more than it is mine or anyone else's. We are all constrained by community consensus on most matters, and by legal imperatives on a few. ~ Kalki 05:01, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Kalki, please calm down and answer this simple question: Why do you believe Chrysostom's quote that Jesus approved killing Jews that reject Him is not a quote about Jesus? This debate could be quickly resolved if someone would address this central point, but no one yet has. Écrasez l'infâme 11:33, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I am quite calm about the issue, but I have no intention of letting highly presumptuous, dishonest or deceitful remarks go unchallenged, on those occasions when I actually do have the time to address them.

If a community consensus develops to retain the one quote in question, I am quite willing to let it remain without further argument on the matter. At this point several people have spoken on the issue, and I am the only one who has indicated any relenting from their original assertions that none of these quotes belong on the Jesus page.

I have modified my original stance, and plainly stated this — there is a case for this one quote mentioned being marginally about Jesus; you seem to have modified yours, but also seem to be speaking at times as if you had never added the 3 other quotes with far less relevance to the page, or actually extended the quote originally posted so as to include one single short remark about Jesus so as to have some solid basis for its inclusion.

Even with the one still being debated, the only portion of Chrysostom's remark that is about Jesus is "This is why Jesus said" — that is it. He then quotes one statement from one of the parables out of context, which provides you a very limited base on which to continue tenaciously asserting that the whole quote, which is plainly about Jews, is primarily about Jesus. That Chrysostom misuses a statement by Jesus to support several statements about Jews I have admitted. That this makes the whole of those particular remarks primarily about Jesus, or even enough to be of sufficient relevance to the Jesus page as to necessitate including them, I do not.

No one at all agrees with you're extremely presumptuous assessment that the "central point" is one about a quote indicating that "Jesus approved killing Jews that reject Him" — and once again I will assert the central issue is whether the mere quoting of Jesus out of context makes Chrysostom's statements about Jews of sufficient relevance to include on the page.

I'm quite sure there are numerous examples where fanatics of all kinds would state that their own particular forms of prejudice, bigotry and persecution of others were things some admirable figure had sanctioned or would sanction. That doesn't mean all of the excuses and reasons which they can concoct to justify or reinforce their own behavior belong on the page about that figure. Some disputable quotes might be included if community consensus indicates they are relevant and notable enough, but not all need be included as if their were some absolute rule that they must be because they have some arguable relevance.

I have not had time recently to tackle all of the issues I would like to as fully as I might wish, on this and several other pages, but I intend to make an attempt on doing some cleanup of the Jesus page within the next week. ~ Kalki 13:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Extending my comment a bit more, and simply addressing the nature of the quotes themselves: though I would have strong disagreement with Chrysostom's views on this and many other metaphysical or moral issues, I actually don't even believe he himself would actually have sanctioned the killing of any Jews, though his extreme rhetoric in this one instance can easily be used to make it seem he did. As far as I am aware, there is no record of any persecutions against Jews which he actually sanctioned, and there have been arguments made that the statements being quoted were actually aimed at dissuading his own followers from adopting many of the Jewish traditions, rather than at inciting them to any persecution of those who continued to follow them. The exact nature of his original Greek words is one that continues to be debated. ~ Kalki 14:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Kalki, you're still skirting the main issue. You haven't explained why you believe Chrysostom's quote is not about Jesus. Just because it's also about the Jews, it doesn't mean that it's not about Jesus. Just because you believe that Chrysostom quotes Jesus out of context or strongly disagree with Chrysostom are not a valid reasons for omitting this or any other quotation of Jesus from the page of Quotes about Jesus. Whether or not you believe that "Chrysostom misuses a statement by Jesus", that Chrysostom quotes "Jesus out of context", or that you "have strong disagreement with Chrysostom's views", would you please provide a straightforward answer to this simple question? Why do you believe Chrysostom's quote that Jesus approved killing Jews that reject Him is not a quote about Jesus? Écrasez l'infâme 15:12, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not skirting anything. I am not stating that "This is why Jesus said..." followed by the quote is not a remark about Jesus. I am stating flatly no other part of the statements are, and that the continuing effort to include these on the Jesus page smacks of nothing less than a repugnant fanaticism. You continually have skirted all mannner of deceptions that your remarks and questions have aimed at making, and keep asking such inane questions as why everyone else here considers the remarks which are plainly primarily about Jews to be primarily about Jews, and won't agree with you that they are primarily or at least sufficiently about Jesus, or why they won't respond to questions obviously framed to prompt a mistaken concession that they are what you wish them to be believed to be. This issue has been abundantly adressed, and you continually try to avoid any indication that community consensus of opinions and not your sole opinion is what should determine whether they are relevant enough to be included on the page. ~ Kalki 15:49, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Kalki, please drop the abusive language and focus on the subject of the debate. You say that

I am not stating that "This is why Jesus said..." followed by the quote is not a remark about Jesus.

Therefore, you admit that Chrysostom's quote is a remark about Jesus. If X says "Jesus says to kill the Jews that reject Him", this is a statement about both Jesus and Jews equally because removing either Jesus or the Jews from the statement changes its meaning entirely. So the claim that this is primarily a statement about Jews does not hold. Now that we both agree that Chrysostom's quote is about Jesus, do you have a reason to omit it from the page of Quotes about Jesus? Écrasez l'infâme 17:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
How many times do you wish me to REPEAT it, I am NOT denying that the quote you have extended since the debate first began now includes a comment which allows you to validly claim it to be about Jesus, as well as the Jews. I still assert the quote remains primarily about Jews, and I don't believe the relevance to the Jesus page is so clear or sufficient that it simply must be included. If the majority feels it should be, it should be; but, if after this long drawn out and tedious dispute full of repeated denial by you alone that the quote is primarily about Jews, the majority believes it doesn't belong on the page it should not. I had been quite willing initially to let this one quote remain, and to even support its inclusion in its newly altered and extended form, but now I am so fed up with your inanely redundant assertions that it is about Jesus and shouldn't be opposed, that I really have no desire at all to see it remain, and am beginning to lean toward opposing it, if the matter comes to a vote. ~ Kalki 17:59, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I must be leaving soon, for perhaps a few hours, but I also wish to note that your previous comments have once again misrepresented the nature of Chrysostom comments to artificially and falsely buttress your position, implying the statement is of such structure as could be read simply as "Jesus says to kill the Jews that reject Him" when in fact the remarks are far more extensive than that — they are initially Chrysostom's own impressions denigrating Jews, followed by highly disputable conjectures about the remarks of a Jewish prophet, after which he closes with the totally false comment "this is why Jesus said" followed by a quote from his parable. It is certainly not equally about Jesus, it only ends with an incidental comment which is about him. The remark about Jesus could even be an after-thought to the whole statement, and a sudden impulse to justify his ranting against jews by implying "and besides Jesus says so..." My contention is that this does provide you some basis to say it can be a valid inclusion to the page, but one person's mis-application of a statement of Jesus to imply "Jesus said so" hardly makes the whole statement so relevant to the Jesus page as to automatically merit inclusion. ~ Kalki 18:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Kalki, if X says "Jesus says to kill the Jews that reject Him", this is a statement about both Jesus and Jews equally because removing either Jesus or the Jews from the statement changes its meaning entirely. So the claim that this is primarily a statement about Jews does not hold. Even if Chrysostom's statement were "primarily about the Jews", which it is not, that is irrelevant for the case of inclusion of a quote about someone, especially given the impact of these statements. Finally, your opinion about whether Chrysostom misquoted Jesus or not is also irrelevant. What would be relevant is the inclusion of a notable quote stating this opinion. Inclusion of quotes in Wikiquote cannot be based on Kalki's personal opinions about the quote. Écrasez l'infâme 03:02, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I entirely agree that it should not be based solely on my opinions about the quote, nor solely upon your extremely ludicrous ones. I really have grown extremely tired of responding to your rather inflated regard for your level of logical integrity, and false assumptions about many matters. It is wasting far too much of my time. I say let it go to a community vote now, and be done with it. I have prepared a voting section below. ~ Kalki 06:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Another issue that has gone unremarked is the suggestion that Chrysostom's quotation was the basis for anti-Semitism. That is not true at all; anti-Semitism had been around for centuries before that [1].--Poetlister 15:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

And if I recall correctly, Chrysostom was not the first Christian writer who used the word "murderers of the Lord" (note: it is one word in Greek). I heard it was Eusebius of Caesarea, who was a contemporary of Constantinus, hence belonging to the generation earlier than Chrysostom . --Aphaia 16:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
No one ever argued that his remarks were the basis for antisemitism, simply that this "golden mouth" was the most persuasive and influential early Christian writer is spreading anti-Jewish opinions. Also, Greek adjective-noun pairs are commonly written together, though this not "one word" as we think of it in English. Read about the history of the defaced Byzantine Emperor Justinian II (Rhinotmetus) for a colorful example of this practice. Écrasez l'infâme 17:29, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
You say that the quote was used "to provide a theological justification for the treatment of the Jews that has been used thoughout Christianity's entire history", as though tis were the only or main quote used. However, this was only one such quote, and far from the most important. See footnote 11 here [2].--Cato 22:31, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Chrysostom's sermons have been cited as pivotal by historians, such as here:
  • [A]lthough the tradition of Chrysostom continued to cause unbridled vituperation for Jews and Judaism, climaxing in the violence of 1096 and beyond, the modulating Augustinian position became, more or less, the "official" policy of the papacy … [G]overnmental coercion became the instrument though which the Church made its scornful commentary on Judaism. Here is the decisive turn in the history of Christian anti-Judaism, a turn whose ultimate disfiguring consequence was enacted in the political antisemitism of Adolf Hitler.
And even the web page you cite states "the language of John Chrysostom stood out for it's invective". He wasn't the only one though, and a case can be easily made for including other Christian anti-semitic quotes. Écrasez l'infâme 02:32, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm just envisioning inclusion of a quote derived from a character in a film stubbing their toe. BD2412 T 05:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
No reasonable person would argue for inclusion of a quote under those circumstances, which are opposite to this case in which the person and words of Jesus are used directly to support a particular action. Écrasez l'infâme 16:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The same editor we can thank for quotes from the anti-semitic dregs of Chrysostom's works which initiated this discussion has recently added these to the Jesus page:

  • I SAY: MY FEELING AS A CHRISTIAN POINTS ME TO MY LORD AND SAVIOUR AS A FIGHTER. IT POINTS ME TO THE MAN WHO ONCE IN LONELINESS, SURROUNDED ONLY BY A FEW FOLLOWERS, RECOGNIZED THESE JEWS FOR WHAT THEY WERE AND SUMMONED MEN TO THE FIGHT AGAINST THEM AND WHO, GOD'S TRUTH! WAS GREATEST NOT AS SUFFERER BUT AS FIGHTER. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and of adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before - the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago - a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.
  • And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God.

The second of these I would retain as being directly enough about Jesus to merit inclusion. The ALL CAP portion of the first is simply the typography from the page the editor linked to, which is NOT universally used, and should be eliminated on all pages where the quote is retained. The final portion of it, beginning with "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice..." is simply more of Hitler's anti-semitic ranting and has no relevance to the Jesus page at all, and should be eliminated from it.

VOTING[edit]

Originally 4 quotes were in dispute; 3 of them seem now to have been retracted, but one remains. It was orignially posted in a form that had no direct relevance at all to the Jesus page:

  • [T]he Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer." … Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing.

It now has been extended to by the editor who originally posted it to include an incorrect comment by Chrysostom about a statement of Jesus to stand thus:

  • 1 : [T]he Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer." … Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them."

In this revised and extended form it now has at least marginal relevance to the page, something it plainly did not have in its original form. A few of the comments about Jews, have been removed by the use of ellipses, which serves to exaggerate the proportion of the comment devoted to Jesus. One might conceivably extend it further to eliminate the ellipses and provide fuller context of the statement, which plainly is primarily one about Jews:

  • 2 : When brute animals feed from a full manger, they grow plump and become more obstinate and hard to hold in check; they endure neither the yoke, the reins, nor the hand of the charioteer. Just so the Jewish people were driven by their drunkenness and plumpness to the ultimate evil; they kicked about, they failed to accept the yoke of Christ, nor did they pull the plow of his teaching. Another prophet hinted at this when he said: "Israel is as obstinate as a stubborn heifer". And still another called the Jews "an untamed calf".
    Although such beasts are unfit for work, they are fit for killing. And this is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them".

OR one could trim it of most of the anti-Jewish polemics to contain only the final 2 sentences which relate Chrsysostom's assertions about Jews (improperly) to a statement by Jesus:

  • 3: This is what happened to the Jews: while they were making themselves unfit for work, they grew fit for slaughter. This is why Christ said: "But as for these my enemies, who did not want me to be king over them, bring them here and slay them."

If it is retained in any of the above forms it could be followed by a comment such as this:

OR it could be eliminated entirely as being of only dubious relevance or significance in any of these forms.

Votes and comments[edit]

Indicate whether you wish the quote retained on the Jesus page or removed with either a Keep 1, 2, or 3 or a REMOVE vote. Additional comments are welcome.

  • Keep 3 (with comment): Despite my own loathing of the extreme over-emphasis and exaggeration of both the significance and relevance of the damned thing by the editor who posted it, an utter contempt for the rather obvious bigotry which seems to drive many of this person's edits, and the speciousness and apparent deceitfulnes of many of the arguments that have been used to justify its inclusion, in this much trimmed down form it is relevant enough to retain. While granting it is a significant anti-semitic statement I continue to see both its relevance and significance to the Jesus page as only marginal, and can accept the assessments of others who might feel that even in this extremely trimmed down form it does not possess sufficient relevance or significance to that page as to merit inclusion. ~ Kalki 06:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove. There are some subjects whose "About" sections are practically guaranteed to overwhelm the actual quotes from the person. Jesus, Muhammad, and Buddha are surely three of the most likely subjects, attracting 1500–3000 years' worth of wildly varying interpretations because of both their iconic value in many cultures throughout history and the endless arguments about the meaning of their often cryptic and seemingly self-contradicting statements. (There may be many more, as this sort of conflict seems to readily arise around religious/spiritual figures who are no longer around to be interviewed by reliable sources.) All of these articles should be thoroughly stripped of any quotes that have even the most prominent, published interpretations, as they are not quotes about the subject, but about the worship that has developed around that subject.
    There have never been and will never be any shortage of people who believe they speak for their dead leaders, but they are only quotable as expressing their opinions, however learned and/or popular. It seems prudent to ensure that the literal millions of such interpreters not be given the opportunity to bury the actual subjects' quotes on Wikiquote by the kinds of relentless effort that our esteemed colleague Écrasez l'infâme has more than amply demonstrated over a handful of quotes from a single source.
    I don't want to see these spiritual leaders' articles turn into another ideological battleground like Abortion, and drawing the line at people using Jesus's and others' words to push a POV — any POV — strikes me as a reasonable means to avoid this. The quotes still can and should be represented in articles from the actual quotee, as well as theme articles about the primary subject of the quote. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    • To clarify what I mean by "POV", I'm not just talking about the idea that Jesus's words are evidence of any dissatisfaction with Jews, let alone anti-Semitism. We don't need people saying things like "Jesus said, 'Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth', encouraging humility and admonishing against aggression". What's important here is what Jesus actually said, not what people think about it. Wikiquote reprints quotes, not interpretations. Where notable people have reliably published interpretations, as is clearly the case for John Chrysostom, they should be quoted on their own pages. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove. Even though this is not a court of law, I see the rules on hearsay applying here. A quote by X should be a quote which we can verify that X made, himself or herself. A quote about X should be a quote we can verify that someone else made, expressing their own opinion of X. Quotes in which X is interpreted, or quoted secondhand, are hearsay, and inadmissible since the difficulties of attributing and verifying a quotation are multiplied when we have it second or third hand. Quotes in which X is mentioned, but not as the subject of the quote, are simply irrelevant. --Ubiquity 07:48, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep 1. The reason that Chrysostom's quote is notable and significant is that it widely influenced Christian anti-semitism on three key points: (1) The Jews killed Christ; (2) The Jews reject Christ; (3) Christ meant for the Jews to be slaughtered because they reject Him. The quote I included contains these three highly influential and significant statements about Jesus and the Jews, statements recognized by professional historians to be "the decisive turn in the history of Christian anti-Judaism", leading directly through history to the "antisemitism of Adolf Hitler." Not including these significant quotes about Jesus on Wikiquotes page is simply to turn a blind eye or whitewash the demonstrable impact of the application of Jesus' Biblical statements on the world. This quote, while it is I'm sure that we hope, abominable to all that read it, nevertheless satisfies all the major criteria for what Wikiquote is: a collection of "Accurate, Comprehensive, and Notable" quotations. Without including quotes about how Jesus' own words have been used throughout the long and significant history of Christian antisemitism, the page of Quotes about Jesus cannot be said to be either Accurate or Comprehensive.
    As for a comment following such controversial quotations, I believe that all quotes should speak for themselves, and comments should only be included to clarify an honest representation of what the speaker intended to say, not what any of us wish was said instead. If the comment states that the speak is incorrect, as does the suggested one here, then a notable authority must be cited that concisely explains why the speaker is incorrect. Without such a cited authority, such a comment by itself would violate Wikiquotes wise policy of citing sources. Écrasez l'infâme 16:01, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
All kinds of lunatics and fools make all manner of interpretations about all manner of things. Both Chrystostom's remarks and yours might well serve as rich examples of this. The points you continually repeat regarding this quote are for the most part highly disputable and often simply ludicrous.
Not all quotes should simply be presented here without comment. It has been standard practice here since the beginning to permit comments about quotes when their context can use clarification. The comment I proposed serves to state a very important FACT about the quote, which can EASILY be verified by reading the entire parable in context, and any desire to omit such a FACT — the fact that it makes a FALSE implication — displays a very strong bias to maintain FALSE implications about it. To insist that one must find a published authority to provide a quote about a quote in order to make a comment about it is something I consider a contemptible attempt to prevent the provision of relevant facts. ~ Kalki 16:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Gee Kalki, thanks for comparing my inclusion of Chrysostom's quote to Chrysostom's invocation of Jesus' words in a denunciation of the Jews. The necessity of simply citing commentary follows from Wikiqote's very reasonable policies:

The need for citations is especially important when writing about the opinions held on a particular issue. Avoid weasel words such as, "Some people say…" Instead, make your writing verifiable: find a specific person or group who holds that opinion, mention them by name, and give a citation to some place where they can be seen or heard expressing that opinion. Remember that Wikiquote is not a place for expressing your opinions or for original research.

Is this what you find to be contemptible? Écrasez l'infâme 18:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Here is one possible Christian authority to cite on Chrysostom and his relationship to the Holocaust:
  • It is true that “writings have many lives,” but John Chrysostom in fourth-century Constantinople should not be held responsible for the misrepresentation of his writings by Nazis in twentieth-century Germany.
Écrasez l'infâme 19:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not the one inclined to using weasel words when I express my own opinions and clear cognizance about anything, and I am not going to retreat from the assertion that Chrysostom's misuse of a parable by Jesus to make false implications is a directly and immediately verifiable FACT, to any person not extremely blinded by prejudice and bigotry who actually examines the parable. I am not the one saying "some people say" or other people say, and giving specific examples — and then take their opinions AS IF they were certain facts, rather than their OPINIONS. I made an easily verifiable factual statement and provided the link by which any person of sense can easily verify it for themselves. ~ Kalki 18:53, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I added the comment with a proper citation for the opinion expressed, consistent with Wikiqote policy. Écrasez l'infâme 19:09, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Écrasez l'infâme, Wikiquote:Citing sources is not policy, but only a draft (as it says boldly at the top). It is one of our least useful so far, as it is virtually unchanged from a 2-year-old version of w:WP:CITE and has considerable material that makes no sense for Wikiquote. The issue of weasel words is largely irrelevant, because Wikiquote contains virtually no user-written prose, and where it creeps in it is usually appropriate to remove it. We quote, source, and at most provide a basic description of the event or situation in which the quote was made, based on the source, not how we or other outsiders view it.
I am proposing that Écrasez l'infâme, Kalki, and myself stop posting in this section, because I don't see how it serves any purpose for us to keep repeating our positions here, especially when we are supposed to be polling the community at this point. (Frankly, I'm not surprised few have responded. Who wants to jump into this mess at this point?) If we wish to continue to continue writing long tracts on this subject, let's take it over to Talk:Jesus, where most of this should have taken place anyway. Meanwhile, let's please give everyone else a week or so to register their opinions with a formal vote, and the three of us try not to bug them either way with these endless repetitions. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 01:13, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove Everyone agrees that these belong on the John Chrysostom page. They may also go on an anti-semitism page. That's enough already.--Cato 20:31, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove. For sanity's sake, the Jesus entry should be limited to quotes directly attributed to Jesus, and to a limited number of particularly noteworthy quotes that are directly about Jesus. Perhaps the quotes at issue should go on the Christianity page. BD2412 T 21:28, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep 3 per Kalki.--Poetlister 23:17, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove per Jeff Q and BD2412. I agree with BD2412 on the general direction of collecting "about people" quotes, in case there are a huge amount of things has been said about that person. That said, even the world itself could not contain the book, if they were written one by one ... while we are not on paper, there should be a natural limit. On the other hand, I happily support this quote is included to Chrysostom's entry and also, other related theme articles, as suggested. --Aphaia 14:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Remove per removes. Cbrown1023 talk 16:01, 27 January 2008 (UTC)