User talk:FotoDutch

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Hello, FotoDutch, and welcome to the English Wikiquote.

Enjoy! Mdd (talk) 17:12, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Lay out[edit]

Hi FotoDutch, thanks for your (new) work. You must have noticed the editorial changes I made in the Joseph Albers and Impressionism article. I merely try to implement the (nowadays) more standard lay-out. Some background info might give you a better understanding:

  • Thematic division in the articles subtitles is avoided as much as possible. Regularly just time periods or book/article titles are used.
  • The source description should give first a full account on the source. Extra description of - or comments on - the quote can be giving after this text, or in a separate line
  • Extra white lines between the quotes are being removed
  • There are Wikiquote:Limits on quotations concerning the number of quotes from one source. Now there are not yet specific quotes about how much can be copied from one website, but this should be limited. (and therefor I trimmed down the number of quotes here)
  • More personally I like to limit the number of quotes from one author in overview article, such as in the Impressionism. Normally only the best (or most notable) quotes are listed in the overview article.

... -- Mdd (talk) 15:04, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

I only just noticed that there is a second problem with the most quotes by Claude Monet in the Impressionism article, that the only (remotely) relate to the theme. Those quote perfectly fit in the Claude Monet lemma and have been added there, but need to be reconsidered in the Impressionism article. -- Mdd (talk) 15:36, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
I try to follow your advice, see Renoir.
Another thing...... and a quite embarrassing thing to me:
When I search on Google with the words 'Renoir' + 'Quotes' then the recommended page-link for Wikiquote comes only at the second linkpage of Google!!!
The same counts for 'Monet' + 'Quotes'
Not very convenient and friendly for all the pupils, students, scholars, teachers and art-lovers who like to read good and sourced quality quotes of famous artists and use the simple and very common searching method: 'name' + 'quotes'
And not very encouraging for me and others to attribute on Wikiquote. Then something of the page lay-out on Wikiquote must be wrong that the search-machines can fins so badly.
All the best.
Thanks for your understanding, and further additions to the Pierre-Auguste Renoir article. You might have noticed I rearranged the initial Impressionism article, taking a (big) step back in order to move forward again. In order to do so, I am trying to improve some of the related article as well.
As to the reason, why these Wikiquote articles are listed just on the second page had to do with the stub size of the article, the number of pages that link to "Pierre-Auguste Renoir" (which you can see here), and maybe also with the numbver of links the article offers.
What I try (almost) always to do with the lemma I created is to add links in other articles to the particular article, and I try to add (at least 3 to 7) quotes from the author in other thematic articles... -- Mdd (talk) 20:42, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Adding pictures[edit]

Hi, I noticed your request today and this earlier attempt. You are most welcome to select and add image yourself. Just keep in mind that on Wikiquote, we only add images available at Wikicommons.

To adding images there are a lot of possibilities, see Wikipedia:Extended image syntax. The most simple way is to use basic coding such as, for example:

[[File:Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Le Moulin de la Galette.jpg|thumb|right|Pierre-Auguste Renoir, 1876]]

So between the brackets you add the filename; the word "thumb" for thumb size; the word "right" for placement on the page; and any text you like. This can be a description of the image, but also any appropriate quote. I hope this will get you going. -- Mdd (talk) 15:35, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the manual for placing pictures on Wikiquote. I try. I noticed for the modern artists there are scarcly good pictures to finf on Wikicommons. Like for Joseph Albers. I saw your image there, but the point is, it is very uncharacteristic for the art of Albers in general.So it doesn't illustrate his quotes very well. The reason of course because there is little choice on WikiCommons! Is it possible to place pictures from (they have a large choice so you can really select) to Wikicommons? Then we can use them for Wikiquote.
FotoDutch (talk) 22:58, 3 June 2014 (UTC)
It is indeed unfortunate that there are hardly any images available on modern and contemporary artists, especially if the haven't made any work in the open air. On the English Wikipedia they have a policy to use images based on fair use, but on Wikiquote they don't. This is understandable, because the primary mission is to collect quotes, which are already collected based on fair use practices.
As to the Joseph Alberts article, that first image was added there by UDScott (see here, and I just added another (see here).
As to those images on, there are also collected there using the fair use policy. Now the Wikimedia software allows us to only use images locally available or at wikicommons. Now again Wikicommons don't accept images to be uploaded on fair use policies because in a lot of countries, those rules don't apply... There is a lot more to it but I hope you get a general idea. -- Mdd (talk) 23:27, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Art movements[edit]

I saw you started already with Cubism!! Great! So we can go on with Futurism, Surrealism, Constructivism, Suprematism, De Stijl, Etc...

Is it possible to make a division in the quotes of such an art movement. ( That I had in my head to do with Impressionism, but it didn't evolve so far yet.)

I mean, for readers it will give clarity I believe, to differentiate between Artists quotes on Cubism from the Cubist artists & Quotes, comments, remarks, critics on Cubism from outside Cubism by artists / writers, art-critics Then we give at first a core-face or soul to Cubism art movement (including all kind of interior discussions and debates of course) as the Cubist artists developed, viewed, invented and reflected it - And a second part how later and/or outside Cubism there were all kind of reactions, comments etc .. by not-Cubists. It could be a model to all the oncoming art movements. What do you think? All the best FotoDutch (talk) 22:58, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

The article on Dada started in 2007 (see here), and this year the new articles on art movements are Constructivism (art), Minimalism, Impressionism and Cubism. If you compare it to the number of articles on philosophical movements (see here) it is just a beginning. There is however the requirement, there there must be (potentially) a substantial number of quotes from notable people. For example, today I cancelled my plan to create an article on Pointillism, and a lemma on Fauvism probably also doesn't make it (yet).
As to the rearrangement of the article, I stipulated before that specific kind of divisions are accepted nowadays, either chronological of by author. Now the impressionism is set up chronologically. If however you want to have the main accent on quotes by insiders and quotes by outsiders, than a chronological division might be better better. Then sort of automatically the quotes from insiders come first. -- Mdd (talk) 00:01, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your suggestion - I started Futurism with chronological divisions. Do you want to cheque and correct?FotoDutch (talk) 15:14, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I have given it a try, and ended up improving some of the articles on futurists. Eventually most of the initial quotes in the Futurism article are moved to those articles and others went in the other direction. The (or my) main idea is that this kind of thematic article should offers an (simple) overview; preferably of most important related artists. The lead of the Wikipedia article on futurism lists about 16 artists of which about 8 are mentioned. Not bad for a start. -- Mdd (talk) 01:29, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit summary[edit]

Can you explain me: If i Read in my contributions: Dada ‎ (more quotes before 1925) (current) What does it mean; Current. That is was already there in the quotes? Or something others? I attributed more quotes to Dada and removed the Stubb there, I Hope you agree. All the bestFotoDutch (talk) 12:33, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I suppose you are refering to overview of your user contributions here? The term (current) simply means that you were the last person to edit the article. When somebody else edits the article, that term will be removed in your overview of user contributions. This term is simply a feature of the wiki editor, and a relatively old one (which you can use similar to the use of your watchlist). -- Mdd (talk) 12:52, 16 June 2014 (UTC)
Well, thanks! I was worrying that there were two concurrent versions, or something like that. —This unsigned comment is by FotoDutch (talkcontribs) . 13:08, June 16, 2014‎

Josef Albers[edit]

Hi, the lemma is trimmed back (again) because far too much quotes from one single interview where copy/pasted here. Please keep this in mind. -- Mdd (talk) 16:39, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought the source was of excellent quality (Smithonians Archive of American Art!!) and came from several interview-days. They pictured the figure Albers very well, I believe.
I want to use more Oral interviews from there for other artists. What is the maximum of quotes I can use from this one source? All the bestFotoDutch
The Wikiquote:Limits on quotations for spoken words speaks of "Five quotes maximum for any work not in the public domain." (see here) -- Mdd (talk) 11:03, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! I hope you don't trim till 5. Is there a possibility to place more quotes than five on Wikisource and than make a link to it?
It depends. Five quotes (in similar situation) doesn't mean five long quotes; This should not be taken to the max. One long quotes and 4 short quotes could do, or just one, two or three longer quotes. -- Mdd (talk) 11:47, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
By the way: all Albers Quotes I recently added are placed on TES - presented there by me for Open Source, so Public Domain.. Look at: Everybody can download them there for free.
On Wikipedia such would require the written permission of the author or its inheritances. And in the case of a interview, it should include the permission of the interviewer as well. These is a similar to contemporary artists, who have their work photographed by professional photographers, and with the complicated Wikipedia system of archiving those permission... very very hard to get. Best regards. -- Mdd (talk) 21:14, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
Well I leave it for a while. I now go on searching for illustrating artist-quotes on: Dada Surrealism - Futurism which you started on Wikiquote. I do it chronologically & alphabetically, like now, alright?

Bram van Velde[edit]

Hi FotoDutch, I noticed multiple sections of the new Bram van Velde significantly exceeds the Wikiquote:Limits on quotations guidelines. For example from 10 pages of the Conversations with Samuel Beckett and Bram van Velde (1965 - 1969) book over 50 quotes (more then 100 lines) have been quotes. The limits on quotation suggest for prose a A recommended maximum of five lines of prose or eight lines of poetry for every ten pages of a book not in the public domain. or if you consider it an interview it is "Five quotes maximum for any work not in the public domain." Since Bram van Velde died in 1981 non of his work or words are in the public domain. -- Mdd (talk) 13:19, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svgY Done I trimmed down two sections to meet Wikiquote:Limits on quotations. -- Mdd (talk) 15:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
You undid the trimming down with the following argument here:
... very short - quotes of Bram van Velde are taken from a series of interviews, over a period of 6 six years; I indicated also the year of the quotes very clearly
Now I have one question: Is the source you mention the primary source, the first publication of these interviews, or have they been published before? -- Mdd (talk) 12:09, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
It was not an argument for copyright-issue but for the precious character of the collected quotes of Bram van Velde you have trimmed. You very seldom meet quotes as such of an rather silent artist, taken during several years by a very faithfull interviewer.

My argument against your rigorous trimming - 3 times already, of good quality quotes of three different artists - is that you are basing your trimming only on a PROPOPSAL of a Wikiquote policy, and not on a DEFINITIVE policy. And what when such a rigid definitive decision will be decided? For only a small amount of permitted quotes from one source? Destroy all the attributions of years? Trim back many good collections quotes? Is that how you want to reward the work of all the editors? Just trim down many resources, like you did with mines three times? What a big loose for Wikiquote as a resource. But happily there is only a PROPOSAL till now. And I hope it will stay a proposal.

—This unsigned comment is by FotoDutch (talkcontribs) . 11:31, November 18, 2015‎

I just checked that:
  • in the past 10.000 edits I trimmed down articles about 100 times (about 1% of my edits), and
  • in Wikiquote as a whole since its beginning numerous articles have been trimmed down due to copyright concerns (see for example Wikiquote:Copyright Cleanup Project, which started in 2008 and trimmed down over 680 lemmas).
At the same time there is indeed only a proposed Wikiquote policy. The number of people actively involved in Wikiquote is small, and the people involved in copyright concerns even smaller. Recent discussions to upgrade the policy unfortunately ended up in an impasse.
Now in the past decennium of the existence of Wikiquote (internationally) the impact of copyright concerns has been significant:
  • The French Wikiquote started from scratch late 2007 after initial copyright problems couldn't be restored in the existing articles.
  • The English Wikiquote started the Wikiquote:Copyright Cleanup Project on September 7, 2008 as stipulated before
  • The German Wikiquote around 2010 introduced the requirement of a secondary source, which limits all quote collection
  • The Dutch Wikiquote between 2012-2014 implemented this requirement and reduced 50% over the articles 95% of its content, while this present of that requirement changes little in the actual copyright status of the work
In trimming down articles, I try to keep these events in mind: Wikiquote should keep acting on possible copyright infringements or others will take over and new significant events will be set in motion.
Now I admit that any trimming back quotes due to copyright concerns hurts, and could be considered a loss. (I personally try to compensate working from other primary sourced) Yet if you are not prepared to uphold certain limitations, you risk everything in the long run. -- Mdd (talk) 13:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC) / 19:08, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

that's a very essential discussion you start. I agree.

But the directions in which you are looking for solutions can be two: You are only focusing on the interior of Wikiquote: if you can rule there things on quote-limitations better, you can avoid troubles with copyright. I prefer the direction outside, to the world. And that means that you organize yourself in a way that you can defend yourself. Organisations like Foodwatch or on the climate sustainability already do, because they know they exist and must operate in a world of power relations. If you start something as Wikipedia / Wikiquote and you want to create a huge source of accessible knowledge for everybody you will meet your enemies. You know beforehand you will meet troubles and attacks. So you have to prepare yourself by creating funds from the very beginning, to pay your lawyers to defend your precious resources, free for everybody.

And you have organize debates on this topic of free knowledge for everybody. Find your mates in that battle, like many universities who started to offer their free resources. Also many knowledge institutes or museums do, like here in the Netherlands the Rijksmuseum where you can download high resolution pictures of their collection for free, on their images resource.

As Wikiquote you strive for realizing good-quality and useful knowledge, which pictures well the quotes of selected people and their role and place in the human history. Than you have to defend that freedom you want to take. FotoDutch (talk) 14:30, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

In suspected copyright disputes I have stood on both sides of the line, and have thought about the possibility of defending work yourself to the outside world. This can only work if people reveal their identity. The situation however is that most people on Wikipedia and Wikiquote work anonymously, and such outside solution simply wouldn't work without changing this. One way or another Wikiquote as an organization will be held responsible eventually and it is up to the community to uphold some kind of control system to prevent this from happening.
If you want to have a better understanding how copyright concerns are dealt with, you might want to look at the Mehdi Akhavan-Sales lemma, its history and deletion review here:
  • After the article was started the first editor nominated the article for deletion, see here
  • A second editor replaced the content with a copy-vio tag, see here and voted for deletion
  • And a third editor (me) trimmed down the original poem down to ten lines, and with some other rearrangements the dispute was eventually resolved.
Since in the Bram van Velde my regular solution has been undone (twice) these two other opinions are still open. One way or another this situation has to be dealt with.
Now the situation here is more complicated by the fact, that you just notified yourself this was the third lemma I trimmed down, and yesterday you exceeded the limits of quotation in (at least) a fourth lemma (here). In similar situations on the English Wikipedia users get formal warnings or even can get blocked, articles can be protected etc. Now in this particular situation, I want to ask you first if you want to start incorporating the limits of quotations into your work, or not? -- Mdd (talk) 13:53, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi FotoDutch, I restarted the discussion about the overquotation in the Bram van Velde article on its talk page, to have one central place to deal with this matter. You are welcome to join the discussion. -- Mdd (talk) 15:15, 23 November 2015 (UTC)


Hi, I trimmed down a section in the Fauvism, and want to let you know I made up my mind about our open disagreement: the burden of proof is on you (as @Ningauble: recently confirmed here). This means, according to me, that if a copyright violation is suspected (by me), it is not for me to prove that it is, but it is for the editor to prove it is not, before adding it back. I would appreciate if you gave this some consideration. -- Mdd (talk) 23:14, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

The foregoing remark misrepresents what I wrote in another discussion. I was writing about, and citing Wikipedia's policy about, the burden to demonstrate verifiability of what the cited source says. The matter in dispute here is entirely different from verifying that a quotation actually appears in the cited source. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:10, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
@Ningauble:, you are absolutely right, I haven't expressed myself clearly: In matter of copyright violation and verifiability (what you recently confirmed) the burden of proof is on the editor, who adds the quotes. -- Mdd (talk) 14:02, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Please rebuild your user page...[edit]

The Mediawiki backend is being updated soon, and your HTML driven user page will break. PLEASE rebuild it using the appropriate markup, Not raw HTML. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 16:21, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Can you please explain me: what is raw html in my Userpage and how can I do it in another way?FotoDutch (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)
Mostly this is that you are using a <table> directly, and a LOT of <li></li>. Mediawiki has perfectly good syntax for bothe tables and lists. ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 22:41, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Thank you for your clarification, now I understand. Can you please tell me where I can find in Mediawiki good syntax for both tables and lists. I have no idea and experience in that matter. FotoDutch (talk) 07:44, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Please do not remove quotes from captions[edit]

I do greatly appreciate your very evident interest in the graphic arts and creation of pages for various artists, and your additions of images to these pages and such others as have existed, but please stop removing quotes from the captions of images. I have never actually approved the practice of simply putting descriptions or technical details of images into the captions, rather than relevant quotes, and though I have accepted it at times, where a few people have had such inclinations, I cannot condone the removal of quotes in favor of such descriptions. This is neither Wikipedia, where such technical details can be appropriate and proper, nor a site for presentations of merely graphic art without some reference to the quotations, which additions of images can and do enhance, in various ways. I certainly encourage the use and appreciation of images, but on these pages they exist for the benefit of presenting the quotes in interesting ways, and the pages do not exist merely to present images without some notable relevance to such quotations as appear on the page, and preferably, to quotations also used as captions. I have noted this at least once before after a few of your edits, but I had been too busy to comment on it previously. Though I had intended to examine such edits and restore the relevant quotations, I have remained too busy to begin such a process, but knowing you have been a prolific contributor, I am somewhat worried as to the number of significant quotes of various artists your practices may have diminished from such prominence as they should have on the pages of our project. I don’t have time to do much examination of things today, and might not actually have that for some weeks or months, but I thought I should make note of my objection to that particular aspect of at least a few of your edits. I certainly do not agree with such absolutist idiocy as would absolutely constrain the use of images only to very narrow or shallow tastes and inclinations, and I certainly do hope you do continue to add pages and arts with the zeal you evidently possess, but please stop ignoring the primary purposes of Wikiquote — to present quotations — of primarily the verbal sort, rather than the visual ones, such as all created images arguably are. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 00:58, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

I am also aware that others have placed many images on pages with relatively few quotes of the artists who created them, or even of some critics of arts, and do not seek to actually forbid such practices, but I believe it is generally preferable to try to keep the number of images to such levels as do not flow far beyond the text areas in at least some of the window sizes most commonly used on modern computers. I recognize that this can vary greatly with screen sizes and viewing preferences, so there actually cannot be a validly absolute rule against this, but even where I myself would prefer to use a few more notable images on a page, I generally comment out some of them if they extend too far beyond the text regions at many of the relatively narrow or mid-range window sizes (such overflow occurs with even a very few images on many of the widest windows — but I believe few people are inclined to use or read windows at the very broadest extents available, and tend to gauge image to text proportions to the midranges of window size which I believe most people are most regularly inclined to use when reading text). ~ Kalki·· 01:19, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Hallo Kalki.. I realize that I indeed removed some quotes in the captions under the images, but I did only, because I could not find back that specific quote in the sourced quotes at the left side of the page. That was the only reason!! Then they are unsourced, I think, and nobody can verify them! Are they real existing quotes of that artist or person, or not?
I was starting to look for these caption-quotes at the right (several - in the case of Georgia O'Keeffe) because I just liked to add the year to that quote in the caption - if possible! But then I could not find them back, at the right - with Ctrl F - I tried it several times! But they were not there. Otherwise they would be still there in the caption. I do not remove quotes, just to make room for the descriptions!! And I never did!! Because the two can go together perfectly, as I did several times already under an image: some description ànd a quote.
So the question remains: what to do with a quote in the caption under an image, if it is not possible to find it back in the sourced quotes at the right side? Because then everybody can make / place his or her 'own fabricated' quote under an image. --- Why I like to place images of the artist's art ànd his or her quote under this image, is because I like to connect the quote and the image, the relation between verbal and visual. Because they can really clarify each other!! That is my only purpose. Thanks for your extended reaction, Kalki.FotoDutch (talk) 10:06, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
I am very glad to be informed that apparent lack of sourcing of the statement was the reason for the removal — that certainly makes it more understandable, and less alarming. I am now doing quick searches of distinctive portions of the phrase (framed within quote-marks), on the internet — which is usually one of the fastest ways to find sources of various statements — and will be adding adequate sourcing to the statements, if I can find them. I will probably make similar attempts to find sources and restore any quotes that might have been removed for such reasons in some of your edits in the weeks ahead. I know I had noticed it at least once before, but I will probably do a more thorough review of such matters in coming weeks and months.
As I stated earlier, I believe descriptions of the images can be accepted as a "stand-in" for quotes, where appropriate quotes for any images you or anyone else might wish to add are not clearly evident, but even then would actually much prefer that any descriptions added eventually be "commented out" and quotes that are as well matched to the images as possible be used, without overt citations about the images themselves, other than those on their Wikimedia Commons pages, or any details you might wish to add in normally invisible comments. ~ Kalki·· 10:59, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
I had already started a quick search earlier, and found the statement sourced to O'keeffe in various works, but had paused in my searches, because I had already found one presentation in which it was encountered directly after a statement of Gaston Bachelard in a way which made it seem that such citations to O'Keefee might be dubious — but further investigation confirmed the quote as O'Keefe's, and the confusing incident was merely one where clearly two different people were being quoted in way which made it seem two separate statements to be a single one of the first (Bachelard), until one looked to the distinct end-notes of the chapter the two consecutive statements were in. The quote had probably previously been sourced on the WQ page — but I haven't bothered to look as to how it became "lost" — I might do so eventually — but I have to attend to many other things now. ~ Kalki·· 11:34, 28 February 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for your time and investigations, Kalki. All the best!FotoDutch (talk) 08:48, 1 March 2018 (UTC)